Home Forums Horse and Musket Napoleonic Spoiling your fun with Russians since 2007

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  • #134731
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    I’ve been in a bit of pain watching the discussion of 1805-7 Russian Hussars over on TMP. Someone got it into their head that hussar officers wore a big bush on their shakos. (That should be big busch, not that’s there’s anything wrong with big bushes.) In fact, hussar officers used what every other Russian officer and general was using – a tall, thick, cylindrical plume of falling feathers. It got shortened in 1809.
    The discussion missed a more interesting fact about the headgear. I believe the hussar officer shako was unique is having a metallic lace about the top of shako. (Although the lancer officers had such around the middle of the czapka.)
    In fairness, it is a bit difficult to follow Viskovatov’s info on plumes, as it’s diffuse and relies on the illustrations. Since this is covered on my Russian uniform page, I was saddened that no one thought to link it.
    So I’ve tightened up the notes about plumes, fixed some items in the garrison field vs. internal establishment ;), and changed a narrative about Gabayev and black flag poles :-o, and released a revision.
    If you are the kind of person that prefers to cut to the chase, and not pore over intriguing images of obscure provenance diligently dug from the four corners of the ‘net to reach dubious conclusions, you can always check my webpage first:
    http://zaotlichiye.net63.net/allfacings.html
    And if not, I could still use the hits, to maintain some visibility in Google.-)
    JG

    #134733
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    It is a really great resource Jonathan.

    Since you have brought the Napoleonic Russians up, this has reminded me to ask you what the Internal Guard was, exactly?

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #134743
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    I focus mostly on the uniforms, but my impression is that the field garrisons were intended to mobilize and provide second rank support, guarding supply lines and depots, conducting rear area sieges, etc. I do know that Sveaborg Garrison which became the new Lithuania Infantry was formed from garrison units conducting a siege, but I’m not aware of any other campaign presence. I assume internal garrison stayed local and dealt with banditry, unrest, as well as actually garrisoning fortresses. When the reorganization happened for the invasion, much of the garrisons went into line units or the newly designated internal guard, but there were a few that remained, probably for the frontier fortresses. I have a vague recall that there was also some kind of provincial police force that merged into the internal guard at that time.
    JG

    #134897
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    Many thanks Jonathan, interesting info on a little-known element of the Russian military.

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #141593
    janner
    Participant

    Hi JG,

    For some reason, Facebook won’t let me post the link to your website (someone was asking about information on Russians).

    Regards,

    http://jannersjaunt.blogspot.dk

    #141608
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Hm, the only thing I can think of is that I don’t believe it’s a straight URL. I think Web000 redirects it. I used it to keep the original URL.

    #151195
    William Arney
    Participant

    Please explain to me the difference between the “Busch” plume and a “tall thick cylinder plume of falling feathers.” At a scale of 1/72, what would the visible difference be? Is it just the material – that the Busch plume is made of horse hair or some other material?

     

    Thanks,

    #151504
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Hi William, yes the busch was stiff horsehair and the officer’s plume feathers. The difference is more the derivation. Off the top of my head, the busch was used by the grenadiers for a brief time, while the feather plume had been used by all officers throughout and continued to be used on the infantry bicorn.
    JG

    #151507
    Jemima Fawr
    Participant

    I’ve always been partial to a large, but neatly-trimmed busch.

    My wargames blog: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/

    #151526
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    (Thumbs up, Boomer)
    I do wonder if großer Busch means everything in German that its translation does.

    #151554
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    One correction – the busch was used by grenadiers from 1805 to c. 1811 – I was thinking of the weird L-g. pyramidal plumes used 1808-10.

    #154137
    Chad Daniels
    Participant

    I love the topic name!  I am working on a project for the Battle of Oravais (September 14, 1808) between the Russian and Swedish armies.  Since the battle takes place as all kinds of uniform changes were taking place, I am seeking advice from the Great and Powerful Gingerich (and others!) regarding the appearance of the Russian infantry at the battle.

    So with an army on active campaign since February 1808, how likely would the November 1807 uniform changes be effective by September 1808?  What about those issued in the spring of 1808, especially facing color changes.  I am planning to do the army in Inspection-era uniforms but would welcome any sage advice.

     

    #154177
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    https://zaotlichiye.000webhostapp.com/allfacings.html

    Most of what I know is in the page. Facings weren’t completely changed until 1809. LPK quote a lot of confusion over the shoulder straps. I supposed the cuffs and collars might have been changed immediately.
    The waistbelt was immediately worn over the shoulder and was visibly narrower until replaced. There was no visually distinctive changes to the short sword.
    My guess is that the boots and linen pants came in pretty quickly as they would wear out frequently. The pack probably took a while.
    I think the text says the new badging was not ready until 1809, but I would have to look more carefully.
    There is probably more information in LPK, but I left it as a low priority as I need to put more effort into the translation and what I get out will be somewhat speculative at best.

    #155577
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Intrigued by the discussion of the L-g. Horse trumpeter on TMP, I looked at what we know about Russian trumpet cords. Looks like we are getting to the ragged fringes of the collective knowledge. Hopefully I’ve helped a bit.

    https://zaotlichiye.000webhostapp.com/allfacings.html

    #155580
    William Arney
    Participant

    Yes. Very useful site. Disagrees with Viskovitov here and there. Viskovatov was citing regulations. The site you post supposedly is based upon what was actually issued.

    #156015
    Chad Daniels
    Participant

    Can anyone advise me as to whether Russian musketeer and grenadier regiments from 1805-1807 had one battalion of grenadiers and two of musketeers/fusiliers OR had one company of grenadiers per battalion with the other companies as musketeers/fusiliers?

    #156020
    Jonathan Gingerich
    Participant

    Apologies Chad, one of the reasons I use my real name is to avoid the temptation of answering “Yes.” Volume 10 of Viskovatov deals with Russian organization in detail and Mark Conrad’s translation is outstanding so I urge anyone with a passing interest in Russians to at least be familiar with what’s there.
    That said – the former Chief’s battalion was grenadiers the other two were musketeers or fusiliers (except the Leib-grenadier which was all grenadiers). Jaeger battalions were all the same. This was ordered changed at the end of 1810.
    JG

    #156022
    Chad Daniels
    Participant

    Thank you, Johnathan.  I have used Mark Conrad’s translations for uniforms but must have missed the volume(s) on organization.  Much appreciated.

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