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27/05/2023 at 04:15 #186666
OotKustParticipantAn intriguing event [an example of a mini-battle inside a larger one] as I’ve probably cited elsewhere, is the advance, capture of a village and retention until forced retirement by one tiny ‘elite’ unit hardly noticed within the Russian Army- the sole sovereigns Body Guard Jaeger Battalion that was ordered by Konstantine to occupy Blasowitz village and become a thorn in the side of Lannes Corps to the North.
Intriguing for the reason of not only undoubted skirmishing skills, but the irony of being commanded by an ’emigré’ formerly of the Condé Legion of the Revolutionary era- Guillaume Emmanuel Guignard, Vicomte de Saint-Priest .
His bio included here:
details his career and achievements that took him through the entire period.
His skills as a tactical commander, General officer and thence sideways to ‘Adjutant’ and Chief of Staff represents a skill set that former country barely achieved to the same degree.
Just another counter-point in my mind to the cynical histories written by both French and British historians.
-d
Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
27/05/2023 at 17:52 #186684
HeroyParticipantThe Life-Guard Jäger regimental history is very good.
https://new.runivers.ru/lib/book4731/58430/
https://new.runivers.ru/lib/book4731/58432/
One can reconstruct their list of officers at Austerlitz, their casualties and their awards ….
Note : Over-Complement (O.C.) indicate presonnel not included in the unit’s regulation establishment.Headquarters
— Chief Officer Lieutenant General Prince Peter Ivanovich Bagration (detached, commanding the avant-guard, Saint-George II)
— Сaptain Over-Complement Pavel Segeyevich Chebyshev-1 (detached, serving as adjudant of fortifications at Saint-Petersburg)
— Staff Сaptain Over-Complement Dimitry Segeyevich Chebyshev-2 (detached, serving as adjudant of fortifications at Saint-Petersburg)
— Staff Сaptain Over-Complement Count Aleksandr Aleksandrovich Grabovsky (detached, serving as adjudant to General-Adjutant Prince Dolgorukov, Saint-Anne IV)
— Lieutenant Over-Complement Fedor Segeyevich Vlasov (detached, serving as adjutant to Prince Bagration, Golden Sword for Bravery)
— Commander Colonel Count Emmanuil Frantsevich Saint-Priest (Guillaume Emmanuel Guignard, le vicomte de Saint-Priest – Saint-George IV)
— Deputy Commander Colonel Yakov Alekseyevich Potemkin (Saint-Vladimir IV)
— Quartermaster & Treasury Sub-Lieutenant Aleksey L’vovich Gribunin
— Commander’s Adjutant Sub-Lieutenant Prince Vladimir Grigoryevich Shcherbatov (mortally wounded)
— Battalion Adjutant Sub-Lieutenant Vladimir Nikolayevich Ladomirsky (died of illness during the campaign)
— Auditor Titular Councillor Vasily Vasilyevich Tveritinov
— Battalion Doctor, Sergeant-Major Medical Assistant & Sergeant-Major Lazeret Supervisor
— Sergeant Drum-Major & Lead Cornetist
— 18x Other Non-combattants
— (~44x officer’s servant – of which ~22 detached)1st Prince Bagration’s Company
— Staff-Captain Nikita Ivanovich Vul’f (Nicolas von Wulff – wounded, Golden Sword for Bravery)
— Lieutenant Fedor Vasilyevich Sazonov-2 (wounded, Golden Sword for Bravery)
— Sub-Lieutenant Andrey Ivanovich Uvarov (Saint-Anne IV)
— Ensign Over-Complement Prince Nikolay Vasilyevich Turkestanov (Saint-Anne IV)
— (~7x officer’s servant)2nd Colonel Potemkin’s Company
— Staff-Captain Andrey Petrovich Turchaninov (wounded, Golden Sword for Bravery)
— Lieutenant Peter Aleksandrovich Ogon-Doganovsky (Saint-Anne IV)
— Sub-Lieutenant Aleksey Cemenovich Kologrivov (Saint-Anne IV)
— (~6x officer’s servant)3rd Captain Ridinger’s Company
— Captain Aleksandr Karlovich Ridinger (Alexander von Rüdinger – wounded, Golden Sword for Bravery)
— Lieutenant Aleksandr Pavlovich Afrosimov-2 (Saint-Anne IV)
— Sub-Lieutenant Mikhail Nikolayevich Matsnev (Saint-Anne IV)
— (~7x officer’s servant)4th Count Saint-Priest’s Company
— Staff-Captain Prince Nikolay Petrovich Gagarin-1 (Saint-Anne IV)
— Lieutenant Prince Yakov Petrovich Gagarin-2 (wounded & taken prisoner, Saint-Anne IV)
— Sub-Lieutenant Count Karl Gavrilovich de Rostintyak (Anne-Charles-Parfait Chapt, le comte de Rastignac – Saint-Anne IV)
— (~6x officer’s servant)Their company organization was somewhat atypical ….
Other Ranks (each company) Per Establishment (PSZRI 20.520 – 23.XII.802)
— Company Sergeant-Major
— 2x Officer Aspirant Sergeant
— Master-at-Arms Sergeant
— Logistics Sergeant
— 4x Sergeant
— 8x Corporal Over-Complement
— 33x Senior Jäger
— 65x Jäger
— Company Barber & Company Medic
— Cornetist & 2x Drummer
— Blacksmith & Carpenter
— 2x Commissary (each with canteen cart) & 3x Drivers (for ambulance, ammunition caisson & supply wagon)1805 Strength Reports
Category : Per Establishment // present 10 August // present 20 October
staff-officers : 2 // 2 // 2 (excluding the Chief Officer)
company-grade officers : 15 // 16 // 15
NCO’s : 36 + 32 O.C. // 65 // 59
musicians : 14 // 15 // 14
privates : 400 // 382 // 393
non-combattants : 50 // 54 //50 (excluding officers’ servants)They did not see combat until Austerlitz, Their advance march averaged about 19 km (about 12 miles) per day from Petersburg to Austerlitz. They seemed to have kept their numbers up and likely were near full-stregth at the battle. They lost 47 other ranks killed or mortally wounded at the battle.
Perhaps interesting, the jäger were armed with the Model 1798 Jäger rifle with sword bayonet.
https://cdn.hermitagefineart.net/lots/fe/4c/d3/fe4cd3ee100b_w2560.jpgThe Jäger had 2 artillery pieces attached : the 5th platoon of the Life Guard Major General Kaspersky’s Light Artillery company No. 1, under the command of Artillery Sub-Lieutenant Arseny Fedorovich Kozlov : most likely 2x 1/4-pud (12-lber) unicorn.
28/05/2023 at 00:38 #186689OotKustParticipanthi
Yes amazing number of supernumeries and ‘attached’ all round. No don’t go into details, my mind is already flush with data from the Second War Against Napoleon volume of the ‘Official History’.
Honestly, who ever wrote in English before this that the opolchenie were not organised in 1812 for the first time, but ordained in December 1806! ? (not suggesting they fought anywhere…).My “I’ll never do Russian Bodyguard..” rule has been crushed by the evidence of Blasowitz; such an outstanding, if minor, action in small scale any gamer would be proud to pull off!
I think Goetz cites (or is it Gingerich) that the ‘battalion’ ordnance was swapped for ‘proper stuff’ in the form of a Bodyguard half battery… in either case it was effective at supporting the otherwise isolated jaeger and lobbed in sufficient shot/ shell to deny an effective Fench attack against them for some time.
These men conducted a steady withdrawl from the village under pressure (3 of the 4 companies- Saint Priest had retained one company in reserve) and continued to battle on the far side (Eastern) of the Stare Vinohrady when approached by enemy. I haven’t read minutely again that they left when the main part of the Bodyguard retired.
They are thus with honour, to be addressed later as a ‘close’ troop to my Kaiserliks when neither Bagration nor Konstantine troops will appear at all.
Thanks d
Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
30/05/2023 at 07:49 #186737OotKustParticipantThe Baron (later Count) von Toll …
In 1805, von Toll served as a major in “His Imperial Majesty’s Suite for Quartermaster Affairs” (then a general staff, topographic and supply service combined). At the end of July he was posted to Count Buxhöwden’s headquarters as a senior staff officer. When the Austrian and Russian forces combined in late November, he was attached to the Allied Supreme headquarters as a staff officer under Prince Volkonsky, with whom he had served under Suvarov in Italy. On the day of battle, he was assigned as headquarters liason and guide for the 4th Column (Kollowrath’s and Miloradovich’s divisions). For his outstanding service at Austerlitz, von Toll was awarded the Order of Saint-Vladimir 4th class. by George Dawe (1781–1829) Von Toll in ~1820.
Well given the vital information and impetus and drive based on the troops to come, I’ve completed my mini-vignette of officer Major von Toll and his loyal escort ‘starshii uryadnik’ racing along a country road in agricultural Moravia 1805 (or 06-07!).
After nibbling away at the work and little else this month, they are ready and waiting for Winter to leave and some warm weather for matt spraying.
The main figure is a Eureka Models (Australia) Russian regimental officer (one of two they make) from their Suvorov ‘Revolutionary’ 1799 range.
The escort ‘starshii uryadnik’ is a SYW cossack, taken from a Casting Room Miniatures (ex-Wargames Foundry ranges) Characters pack.
Pic to be added from Flickr shortly… ok so Flickr played up so I threw in the towel last night. Here ’tis…
2/
IMG_6722_Major von Toll (1805) ©dww 2023 Final by DaveW, on Flickr.Hope they meet the standards… the ‘4th Column’ Avant-Garde lags behind…
cheers -d
Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
09/07/2023 at 03:28 #188228OotKustParticipantAnother surprise find as I trolled more dark corners of the webbs:
https://impereur.blogspot.com/2013/07/3-1774-1840.html
a treatise on ‘Sysoev (3rd) Vasily Alekseevich (1774-1840)’. A very energetic chap obviously and actively promoted.
Discovering how more active cossacks were in 1806/07 (compared with paltry previous sources…) and knowing that part (or what was left) of this regiment was at Austerlitz I had been a little confused as to naming.
This short bio clarifies completely I think- Sysoev3 being the son of Sysoev1, after several promotions through other pulk,the latter had joined his fathers regiment for the 1805 campaign.
Because of the ‘normal naming conventions’, the regiment was renamed in English as Sysoev3- however according to this it did not happen until two years later. Hence we had English wrong, Russian history citing original ‘designation’ leaving me a confused boy!
I think now I’ll raise the full unit- this is the one that was awarded a St.George banner
(and IIRC the ONLY one in 1805 campaign) for their actions ‘in battle’ at Dürenstein (I think- cannot find the confirmation).*Edit* 21July 2023
OK clearly I need to stop relying on faulty memories as I’m perpetuating the same myths myself. I hereby officially scrub my sour notes and refer dear readers who can be bothered to look below at the correct historical info provided by ‘Heroy’.
Stirling work my man! and thanks again.
-d
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09/07/2023 at 08:29 #188232HeroyParticipantDates are Old Style.
The unit was new raised in the Don homeland for external service on 11 July 1805 as Sysoyev-1’s Don Cossack regiment, under the command of then Lieutenant-Colonel Aleksey Gavrilovich Sysoyev-1 (1755 – 1814+) and including his son, then Cossack Major Vasily Alekseyevich Sysoyev-3, as deputy commander.
From 28 February through 28 April 1807, the regiment was under temporary command of the son. This became permanent on 28 April 1807 and the regiment was re-named Sysoyev-3’s Don Cossack regiment. This commander and thus regimental name was retained until the unit was disbanded on 31 October 1814.
In 1805, they fought at Hollabrunn (3 November), Shöngraben (4 November), Raußnitz (8 November), Wischau (13-16 November) and Austerlitz (20 November).
On 13 July 1806 the regiment was awarded a Saint George banner which was delivered on 15 November 1807. It had the inscription «За подвигъ при Шенграбене, 4 Ноября 1805 года, въ сраженiи 5 т. корпуса съ непрiятелемъ, состоявшимъ изъ 30 т.» (“For distinction at Shöngraben on 4 November 1805 in the battle of the corps of 5 t[housand] with an enemy consisting of 30 t[housand]”), .
The banner was made of white damask silk. On one side was a black eagle on an orange field, with the Moscow coat of arms on its chest, with bundles of lightning bolts in its claws. On the back, a golden monogram on a white field in a golden radiance. Gold fringe. St. George ribbons with silver tassels. The flagstaff was green trimmed in gold, its gilded spearpoint bearing a St. George’s cross.
http://www.vexillographia.ru/russia/rarmy/kaz1807.gif
https://runivers.ru/bookreader/books/579294/0235.gifKhanzhenkov-1’s Don Cossack regiment, under the command of Lieutenant-Colonel Vasily Yegorovich Khanzhenkov-1 was similarly awarded for Shöngraben.
09/07/2023 at 09:03 #188233OotKustParticipantAh yes Shöngraben ! Amazing how I have information, yet cant find it when I need!
I honestly thought I had re-documented these facts for future reference, yet unable to find it! Many thanks for the clarification once again…
dSwinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
15/07/2023 at 05:16 #188495OotKustParticipantAh yes Shöngraben ! Amazing how I have information, yet cant find it when I need!
In following up, since I’m doing the maligned Novgorod Musketeers, who also at Shöngraben were ‘awarded’ pre Austerlitz decree, then cancelled St.Georges banners (two battalions) post Austerlitz in 1806.
I’ll be reproducing just a single battalion, said to be the combined remnants of two musketeer battalions- therefore the second and third. These formed half the 4th Column Avant-Garde and were first contact on the Pratzen ridge.
Hypothetically, they could be carrying 4 banners! Yikes, but I bet they stored a pair before starting the campaign from Olmutz. The ‘first’ grenadier battalion stood separately in the Brigade of Maj. Gen. Repninsky further back in the main line.
In a wish to secure information i was intrigued that there is no mention in my French books of Russian ‘Grenadier’ uniforms- other than by regiments names. Can we be sure what they wore (ie mitres vs new style shakos)?
Thiebault made no mention at any time of contacting or seeing grenadiers (ie mitres or busch plumes). Given the detail of his observations of the enemy… hmmm…
-d
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19/07/2023 at 05:29 #188612OotKustParticipant(“For distinction at Shöngraben on 4 November 1805 in the battle of the corps of 5 t[housand] with an enemy consisting of 30 t[housand]”),
I’d be interested to know what occurred there.
Neither Cossack Hurrah (S.Summerfield) nor Napoleon and Austerlitz (S.Bowden) acknowledge or throw any light on them. The latter places both cossack polk on the flanks of the 6th Jaeger (3 bns) in the front line of the vineyards North of the town. Explained there as ‘Bagrations most expendable troops…’
Without much explanation, after an initial bombardment and reply, as dusk was settling, once the French infantry advanced- Oudinots Reserve Grenadiers Division- all regiments retired along preplanned routes to prearranged positions.
So from this perspetive, there isn’t a story to tell… yet…
thanks -d
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20/07/2023 at 16:11 #188657HeroyParticipantAusterlitz – 4th column – Russian division
Command
— Lieutenant General & Chief Officer of the Apsheron Musketeers Mikhayl Andreyevich Miloradovich (age 34 – Cavalier of Saint-Anne I with diamonds, Saint-John of Jerusalem Commander with diamonds & Saint-Alexander Nevsky – promoted Lieutenant General for Schöngrabern & awarded Saint-George III for the 1805 campaign)
— HIM’s Flank-Adjutant & Engineer Staff-Captain of HIM’s Headquarters Suite Count Thedor Ivanovich Tizengauzen (Berend Gregor Ferdinand Graf von Tiesenhausen – age 23, General-of-Infantry Kutuzov’s son-in-law, mortally wounded at Austerlitz, postumously awarded Saint-Anne IV & Austrian Maria Theresa)
— Lieutenant & Chief Officer’s Adjutant of the Apsheron Musketeers Nikolay Alekseyevich Arakcheyev (age ~21, illegitimate son of Lieutenant General of Artillery Count Arakcheyev)
— Sub-lieutenant & Regiment Adjutant of the Apsheron Musketeers Thedor Nikolayevich Glinka (age 19, awarded with promotion to Lieutenant for the 1805 campaign, future poet & author)
— Ensign of the Little Russia Grenadiers Semen Yakovlevich Brovkov (age ~20, awarded with promotion to Sub-lieutenant for the 1805 campaign)
— Banner Ensign of the Apsheron Musketeers Nikolay Mikhaylovich Tulayev (age ~18, awarded with promotion to Ensign for the 1805 campaign)
— Major of HIM’s Quartermaster Suite Dmitriy Nikolayevich Kochetov (age ~45, awarded with promotion to Lieutenant-Colonel for the 1805 campaign)
— Lieutenant of HIM’s Quartermaster Suite Baron Andrey Yegorovich Fitingof (Freiherr Karl Konrad von Vietinghoff – age 35, married to Major General Ritter von Baggovut’s first cousin)
— Sub-lieutenant of HIM’s Quartermaster Suite Baron Andrey Karlovich Fitingof (Freiherr Heinrich Ludwig von Vietinghoff – age 22, wounded at Austerlitz, future Engineer Lieutenant General & Chief of the Topographical Service)
— Lieutenant of Yelisabetgrad Hussards N_______ (with an escort platoon of 40 hussars)20/07/2023 at 21:46 #188659OotKustParticipantthanks but ummm___
403 Forbidden
kittenxSwinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
20/07/2023 at 23:03 #188660OotKustParticipant— Lieutenant of Yelisabetgrad Hussards N_______ (with an escort platoon of 40 hussars)
Hmmm, these are cited elsewhere as HQ company of Gen Kutuzov. So I decided to create them, merely 4 figures, my sample paint with a purchased K.
Sod that I got a charging hussar instead of a static one as a sample, but never mind… yes it’s a 1799 Eureka…
I am modelling the entire force here-
4th Column- Avant-Garde:
Two ‘command’ figures- Lt. Col. Monakhtin (of Novgorod Musketeer Regt.) and “Major von Toll“ from HIM A1 SHQ staff (latter already completed).
Erzherzog Johann Dragoon Regt #1: 2 sqdn (ie one division). [Black facings]
**Apsheron Musketeer Regt: Grenadier (1st) battalion
[Brest Insp- Straw facings; Lt crimson tabs- Shakos- Hinchliffe]Novgorod Musketeer Regt: 2d/ 3d battalions (combined)
[Kiev Insp- Raspberry aka Lt crimson; wh tabs- unknown but using bicornes-Eureka]1st Pioneer Regt: 1 Company TBS
Aus Pioneer Corps: 2 coys TBS-d
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20/07/2023 at 23:36 #188661HeroyParticipantSorry – it was on VK (like Facebook in Russia), and blocked unless you can imitate a Russian IP address.
A better, full image of the same map is on Gallica – but Gallica is downCapitaine du génie Marie-Antoine Calmet de Beauvoisin (Patis 1770 – 1826)
“Plan de la bataille d’Austerlitz”
on gallica.bnf.fr when the site re-openshttps://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7200118d
https://www.leonore.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/ui/notice/63496
Three more maps to tide you over ….
Tardieu 1808
https://pictures.abebooks.com/inventory/30815637233.jpgPaulin ~1840
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/FDTF66/czech-republic-plan-champ-de-bataille-dausterlitz-1805-brnn-brno-1859-FDTF66.jpgunknown
https://napoleon-monuments.eu/Napoleon1er/images/1805AusterlitzAlison.jpg21/07/2023 at 19:20 #188701HeroyParticipantAusterlitz – 4th column …. Hmmmm …. as far as I know ….
The Colonel’s Division (two squadrons) of Dragoner-Regiment Erzherzog Johann No. 1 (under the command of Major General Freiherr Johann Joseph Wodniansky von Wildenfeld & Colonel Ritter Ludwig von Hentzy) were the avant-garde for General Kolowrat’s command. Another squadron of the regiment was guarding Olmütz, with the remaining squadrons given other rear area security assignments.
General Miloradovich’s platoon (half-squadron) of Yelisabetgrad Hussars had been taken from the squadron detailed as escorts for General Kutuzov’s headquarters on the morning of the battle. Yermolov describes this as a “request to a friend”, presumably the Headquarters Staff Duty Officer Major General Inzov, with whom General Miloradovich had served under Suvarov in 1799.
The Austrian pioneers were located, not surprisingly, under General Kolowrat’s command. They were a half-battalion (3 companies) of pioneers, equipped with 2 pre-made 10-meter foot bridges, under the command of Pioneer-Major Baron Josef von Hagen. These were the only Austrian pioneers at the battle, the other half-battalion with 10 more foot bridges having been sent into Olmütz.
● Major Dreyer’s company of the 1st battalion of the 1st Pioneer regiment
This Russian pioneer company was located near to Major General Repninskiy’s brigade, under the command of Engineer-Major Ivan Samoylovich Dreyer (Friedrich Johann von Dreyer – age ~36)
— wore shakos – shoulder straps red – cuffs, collar & turnbacks black piped red – cuff flaps green piped red – trousers medium gray – belting, pompon, & metalwork white – armed with pistols, short swords & entrenching tools – woodwork black – no flags● Major Shtein’s Light Artillery company of the 1st battalion of the 5th Field Artillery regiment
This artillery company, under the command of Major Thedor Thedorovich Shtein (Theodor Karl von Stein – age ~37), provided a platoon of 2 pieces led by an artillery officer to each battalion of Little Russia Grenadiers and Smolensk Musketeers : 2x 12-lber unicorns to each of the 1st battalions & 2x 6-lber cannons to each of the 2nd & 3rd battalions (12 pieces total)● Major Ansio’s Light Artillery company of the 1st battalion of the 5th Field Artillery regiment
This artillery company, under the command of Major Aleksandr Yegorovich Ansio (age 29, wounded in the heel and taken prisoner at Austerlitz), provided a platoon of 2 pieces led by an artillery officer to each battalion of Apsheron and Novgorod Musketeers : 2x 12-lber unicorns to the Grenadier battalion of Apsheron Musketeers, 2x 6-lber cannons to each of the 2nd & 3rd battalions of Apsheron Musketeers & 2x Austrian 3-lber cannon to each battalion of Novgorod Musketeers (12 pieces total)
— wore shakos – shoulder straps tourquoise – cuffs, collar & trurnbacks black piped red – cuff flaps green piped red – trousers & belting white – pompon white with center tourquoise – metalwork yellow – woodwork black – no flags● Colonel Kudryavtsev’s Battery Artillery company of the 2nd battalion of the 3rd Field Artillery regiment
This artillery company, under the command of Colonel Dmitriy Ivanovich Kudryavtsev (age 49, Cavalier of Saint-Anne IV, Saint-Vladimir IV, Saint-John of Jerusalem & Saint-George IV, Chief Officer of the 3rd Field Artillery regiment * ), provided a platoon of 2 pieces (presumably 2x short 12-lber cannon) led by an artillery officer to Lieutenant-Colonel Monakhtin’s avant-guard, with the company’s remaining 10 pieces located near to Major General Berg’s brigade : 1 platoon with 2x short 12-lber cannon, 2 platoons each with 2x medium 12-lber cannon & 2 platoons each with 2x 24-lber unicorns (12 pieces total)
* Accused of deserting his command at Austerlitz, the charges were dropped after intervention by the colonel’s wife, an illegitimate daughter of the last Polish king and confidant of Emperor Alexander’s wife.
— uniformed as per the light artillery companies, except : shoulder straps yellow – pompon red with center yellowNext …. the infantry ?
21/07/2023 at 21:21 #188718Skip
ParticipantSpoiling my game board with Russians
[20210501-172639.jpg](https://postimg.cc/LYnKZxq3)
21/07/2023 at 21:35 #188719HeroyParticipantBeautiful work ! Very impressive !
22/07/2023 at 06:23 #188727OotKustParticipantHmmm my, we have some rust amongst the pipes this month… and having spent the morning with my remedial education pupils (5-10 year olds) I’m ready for controversy!
Sorry – it was on VK (like Facebook in Russia), and blocked unless you can imitate a Russian IP address.
Thanks but suspect I have a copy already- certainly I bought hi-res copies of antique maps from before/ after Nap period via?? Bavaria maybe?
The Colonel’s Division (two squadrons) of Dragoner-Regiment Erzherzog Johann No. 1 (under the command of Major General Freiherr Johann Joseph Wodniansky von Wildenfeld & Colonel Ritter Ludwig von Hentzy) were the avant-garde for General Kolowrat’s command.
Nafziger, and hence Bowden, have Wodniansky listed as in command of something. Yet a document I read of German origin stated he was a ‘Column Guide’- so I am really dubious about any such ‘command. He was an older man, a non-entity with little to show AFAIK :
https://www.napoleon-series.org/research/biographies/Austria/AustrianGenerals/c_AustrianGeneralsW.html#W41Another conundrum on same- how can the Russian commander of the Avant-Garde’ be Lt. Col. Monakhtin (of Novgorod Musketeer Regt.)- when the cavalry attached was commanded by an ‘allied’ GMajor?
Doesn’t work for me. So I place him, subject to revision, as an inactive space filler on Kutusovs command base. [?]
General Miloradovich’s platoon (half-squadron) of Yelisabetgrad Hussars had been taken from the squadron detailed as escorts for General Kutuzov’s headquarters on the morning of the battle.
Interesting- given it is merely a ‘compagnie’ I was only making 4 figures again to ‘guard’ the man Kutuzov. There is zero reference to any ‘cavalry’ in action on the Pratzen; even tho the “Colonel’s Division of Dragoner-Regiment Erzherzog Johann No. 1” was mentioned only as being constrained and getting out of the way of St.Hilaires advance.
These were the only Austrian pioneers at the battle, the other half-battalion with 10 more foot bridges having been sent into Olmütz.
Under Kienmayer, Dokhtorovs First Column were:
3 Pioneer Company’s -w 2 Bridges**
**Subsequent to completion, I discovered that these companies had ‘two mobile bridges’ associated, according to Gingerich site.These are in another thread, where?
http://
IMG_5029_sm © dww 2021 Pioneer Korps #1 (1st Col.) by DaveW[/url], on FlickrNot that I have bridges available for them.
Really existential exercise- why have pioneers and bridges on hand, but no plan using them to cross the Goldbach which was effectively a solid block and the defiles were, mysteriously, defended and well by those damnable Francaise??! Colour me confused!!!Russian Artillery- thanks for the detailed analysis. I knew of the general breakdown into pairs of ordnance once the true ‘infantry battalion’ guns were reformed for “distributed artillerists”.
Collateral questions arises- “Areekshevs’ ‘new’ ordnance in use from 1805 I read recently- yet theres not a skerrick of info of change from 1800 to 1805. He was a nasty piece of work it seems, personally beheading soldiers for insubordination etc… seems to have a lot in common with a certain other russkii ‘chef’… 😐
Apsheron and Novgorod Musketeers
Yes my plans thus far are to complete only these [depleted] regiments and not the rest of the ‘Brigades’.
Whilst a true ‘Grenadier’ regiment appeals, I’d give them a higher ‘elite’ status than the grenadier battalion of a musketeer regiment. Theres a Russian critic who said as much. I trust its in my notes somewhere to justify later.● Colonel Kudryavtsev’s Battery Artillery company of the 2nd battalion of the 3rd Field Artillery regiment
Already completed these (see above this thread) as my prime 4th Column/ Corps battery. Guns and unicorns are WIP on table now.
Thanks for expanding our horizons once again!
–dSwinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
22/07/2023 at 12:10 #188737HeroyParticipant“[Wodniansky] was a Column Guide”
Yes – very possibly. Colonel von Hentzy was the regiment’s commander. I stopped looking in detail after I saw [1] Miloradovich (confirmed by [2] Yermolov) not mentioning Austrian dragoons and asking for hussars, [3] the dragoon’s regimental history mentioning Kolowrat not Miloradovich, and [4] Aleksey Anatol’yevich Vlasov (former lead researcher & chief specialist for the reigns of Paul and Alexander at the Russian State Military Historical Archive, 1956-2021) putting him with Kolowrat. I believe they were indeed assigned to Miloradovich, but stayed with Kolowrat – thus prompting Miloradovich’s last minute request for hussars.“Under Kienmayer, Dokhtorovs First Column were 3 Pioneer Company’s”
Well, they appear in “Der Krieg 1805 in Deutschland”, the Austrian staff study published in the mid-1800’s. And this got copied into the Colin & Alombert. And so on. Indeed they had been so assigned. However, per the regimental history, they were removed to Olmütz on the night of 28/29 November, after the “state” reproduced in Kreig.Major Dreyer’s pioneers fought the French hand-to-hand like demons (even though not equipped with muskets), presumably in defense of Colonel Kudryavtsev’s artillery, and suffered over 50% casualties. Sidenote : Standard procedure for Russian Battery companies was to immediately begin making hasty field improvements – levelling ground, making parapets, etc. – when stopped in the face of the enemy. And it was also standard procedure to detail any pioneers not otherwise tasked to assist in this work.
“using them to cross the Goldbach”
They were only 10m long and about 2.5 meters wide and did not link together. OK for crossing trenches (maybe), but not much else. Maybe useful for getting caissons across small streams ? I have no idea why the Austrians liked them so much, except perhaps because their pioneers had been only very recently formed from their pontooneers – a case of “doing what you can do, instead of what you should do”.“[artillery] change from 1800 to 1805”
Virtually all of the changes attributed to Arakcheyev’s “1805” reforms were started under Paul’s reign, or even under Catherine. The idea of a new “System of 1805” arose from the execution of new drawings for the pieces in that year. These were only collated and mildly revised from existing designs. Yet it was Arakcheyev who had spurred the implementation of the Paul-era reforms – and these might have otherwise easily died at the change in reigns for any number of reasons.“zero reference to any ‘cavalry’ in action on the Pratzen”
The Russian hussars were being used as escorts for Miloradovich and his retinue, who were up with the avant-guard, and otherwise as messengers. Yermolov reported only 20 with Miloradovich. I found no mention of the Austrian dragoons, but wasn’t really looking. Their regimental history only relates that the scattered squadrons re-collected together after the battle. If I had to guess, I would say the Austrian dragoons led out Kolowrat’s troops and then “advanced to the rear” when they saw Saint-Hilaire’s troops.“Apsheron and Novgorod Musketeers”
Wilco.22/07/2023 at 18:56 #188751HeroyParticipantPoint of clarification/correction ….
Major Ansio’s Light Artillery company also had half of the company (with Russian pieces) with the Galicia Musketeers in the 3rd column.
The men manning the 6x Austrian pieces with the Novgorod Musketeers would have been from a mix of Russian artillery companies and infantrymen from the regiment.
22/07/2023 at 20:23 #188752HeroyParticipantАпшеронскiй Мушкетерскiй полкъ / Apsheron Musketeer regiment
● Command
— Chief Officer : Major General Mikhail Andreyevich Miloradovich (age 34, Cavalier Saint-Anne I with diamonds & Saint-John of Jerusalem Commander with diamonds & Saint-Alexander Nevsky, served detached as a divisional commander, promoted Lieutenant General for Krems, awarded Saint-George III for the campaign)
— Commander : Colonel Prince Aleksandr Vasilyevich Sibirskoy-1 (age 26, passed Commander of Narva Musketeers at the start of the campaign, badly wounded by bullets in the left leg & captured at Austerlitz)
— Officer-in-Command : Lieutenant-Colonel Yakov Petrovich Marchenko (age ~36, Cavalier Saint-Anne II)
— 2nd battalion Commander : Lieutenant-Colonel Prince Sergey Vasilyevich Sibirskoy-2 (age ~24, killed at Krems)
— Major Ivan Ivanovich Shterkh (Johann Stark – age ~38, Cavalier Saint-Anne II & Saint-John of Jerusalem Commander, served detached as a staff officer at the army headquarters)
— 3rd battalion Commander : Major Vasiliy Ivanovich Shramchenko (age ~31, Cavalier Saint-Anne II with diamonds, wounded at Austerlitz, awarded Saint-Vladimir IV for the campaign)
— Grenadier battalion Commander : Major Sergey Fedulovich Kirilov (age ~25, wounded by a bullet in the side at Amstetten & awarded Saint-George IV)
— Captain Ivan Semenovich Morozov (age ~30, took over command of the Grenadier battalion at Amstetten through Austerlitz, wounded at Austerlitz)
— Captain Mikhail Mikhailovich Tulaev (age ~30, took over command of the 3rd battalion at Austerlitz)
— Staff-Captain Ivan Danilovich Dubrovskiy (age ~28, Cavalier Saint-Anne IV, took over command of the 2nd battalion at Krems through Austerlitz, promoted Captain for the campaign)● Strength
— beginning of September on the rolls : 59 company-grade officers + 2,059 other ranks (123 NCO’s, 57 musicians, 1,879 rankers) + 141 non-combatants
— beginning of September in hospital/on-leave/detached/etc. : 2 company-grade officers + 103 other ranks (5 NCO’s, 0 musicians, 93 rankers) + 11 non-combatants
— beginning of September present under arms : 57 company-grade officers + 1961 other ranks (118 NCO’s, 57 musicians, 1,786 rankers) + 130 non-combatants
— losses (killed, wounded & missing/captured) at Amstetten : 2 company-grade officers + 27 other ranks
— losses (killed, wounded & missing/captured) at Krems : 14 company-grade officers + 452 other ranks
— estimated present under arms at Austerlitz : 41 company-grade officers + 1,470 other ranks, with average battalion strength of 13 company-grade officers (vs. 17 per establishment) + 490 other ranks (vs. 617 per establishment*)
* plus the Regiment Quartermaster, Regiment Treasurer & 8 Fifers with the Grenadier battalion
— At Austerlitz, the 9 platoons of each battalion would form in 24 files and 3 ranks, but with the 3rd rank only 1/2 filled and with Lance Corporals filling the posts of absent NCO’s
— losses (killed, wounded & missing/captured) at Austerlitz : 10 company-grade officers + 369 other ranks● Uniform & Flags
— wore shakos – collar & cuffs straw – shoulder straps light-raspberry – pompon for the Grenadier battalion white with center light-green, for the 2nd battalion yellow with center light-green & for the 3rd battalion red with a center light-green – woodwork black -1 “white” flag and 5 “color” flags
— no flags lost during the campaign
http://www.vexillographia.ru/russia/rarmy/apser1.gif
http://www.vexillographia.ru/russia/rarmy/apser2.gif22/07/2023 at 21:31 #188753OotKustParticipantАпшеронскiй Мушкетерскiй полкъ / Apsheron Musketeer regiment
Interesting…
StrengthQuite a variation between these numbers and the cited Kutuzov reports(s)..[ Edited Dec23 multiple …]https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/battles/1805/Austerlitz/c_austerlitz1.html
and this malformatted page of other data:
https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/battles/1805/Austerlitz/c_russiancasualties.html
Is the difference a time-lag/ information availability matter?
Goetz cites I think your ‘average strength’,
but is determining two combined battalions I think. I will check when conscious later…Finally- whilst I admire his frank memoires and commentary (as translated)- I wonder how much faith to put in Yermolovs comments here?
He was not and could not have been present at the places concerned, or the situations that developed- far too South of his position adjacent to the Olmütz Highway and his field of action, to know detail that otherwise he had to get second hand at a later time.😉
Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
23/07/2023 at 11:40 #188759HeroyParticipantCorrecting a typo (above) : “At Austerlitz, the eight platoons of each battalion ….”
=======================
I gave the losses for Apsheron Musketeers as per the regimental history published in 1892, footnoted to “Combat reports for November [Old Style] 1805” found in the Moscow Branch of the General Staff Archives. The officer casualties are listed by name. There is nothing in contradiction or inconsistent with Milarodovich’ s after action report to Kutuzov written on 3 December 1805 O.S.
The linked table from Kutuzov is from a report about 5 weeks after the battle and does not include the wounded. For Apsheron Musketeers it shows 2 company-grade officers and 188 combatant other ranks. Eight wounded company-grade officers are not included, leaving only Lieutenant Kirilo Hikolayevich Kobletskiy (of the Grenadier battalion, killed) and staff-captain Yakov Semenovich Nitsenko(v) (of the 2nd Battalion, initially listed as killed but later found to have been wounded and taken prisoner). Similarly, 194 wounded other ranks included in the November report are not included in Kutuzov’s report. There is a slight discrepancy – 13 men – in the count of other killed/prisoner ranks, implying that 13 of the wounded other ranks had succumbed to their wounds over the 3 weeks intervening between the two reports.
Mr. Goetz has Apsheron and Novgorod Musketeers deploying in three battalions each, as does Gos. Vlasov. This is also in Miloradovich’s after action report. And this is consistent with standard Russian practice that allowed/directed battalion consolidation only if the 8 platoons of each battalion could not form in 16 files in two ranks (less than 32 rankers) vs. full deployed strength of 24 files in three ranks (total 72 rankers) vs. full strength per establishment (total 81 rankers).
24/07/2023 at 10:02 #188781OotKustParticipantI gave the losses for Apsheron Musketeers as per the regimental history published in 1892,
Yes I concur; I should not write replies at all in the predawn dark. Where did I get the notion that the 4th Column, among others, I cannot find in my notes and records… perhaps I’ve incorrectly extrapolated from another unit?
I’ll keep looking. Another unit of which I’m more sure are the Bröder #7 Grenzers in Dokhturovs Avant-Garde (FML Kienmayer)- which was down from 2 to a single combined battalion by Austerlitz. Well at least thought so till now…
-dSwinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
24/07/2023 at 14:08 #188786HeroyParticipantНовгородскiй Мушкетерскiй полкъ / Novgorod Musketeer regiment
● Command
— Chief Officer Major General Sergey Yakovlevich Repninsky (age 30, served detached as a brigade commander, wounded by bullets in the right leg, head & lower back at Austerlitz)
— Commander Lieutenant Colonel Thedor Thedorovich Monakhtin (age 28, Cavalier Saint-Anne IV, leading the Grenadier battalion at Schöngrabern, served detached as an avant-guard commander at Austerlitz, promoted Colonel in April 1806)
— Colonel of Preobrazhenskiy Life-Guards Vladimir Petrovich Mezentsov (age ~24, assigned by his own request to Novgorod Musketeers in August 1805, distinguished at Krems while leading the 2nd & 3rd battalions, passed to Narva Musketeers in November 1805, wounded in the head & captured at Austerlitz)
— Major Ivan Ivanovich Bakurinskiy (age ~35, commander of the 2nd battalion, promoted Lieutenant-Colonel in April 1806)
— Major Karl Ivanovich Bettikher (Karl Christoph Gottlieb von Bötticher – age 33, Cavalier Saint-Anne IV, commander of the Grenadier battalion)
— Major Yegor Matveyevich Glazov (age ~35, commander of the 3rd battalion)
— Major N_______ N_______ Pushchin (age ~35, deputy commander of a Musketeer battalion, concussed and captured at Austerlitz, returned and placed on medical leave in March 1806)
— Major Vladimir Nikolayevich Yergol’skiy (age 30, deputy commander of a Musketeer battalion)● Company-grade Officers
— Captain Gur’yev : distinguished at Krems
— Staff-Captain Beyer : distinguished at Krems
— Staff-Captain Kovich : distinguished at Krems
— Staff-Captain Milyutinov : distinguished at Austerlitz
— Lieutenant Kirilov : killed at Austerlitz *
— Lieutenant Berezovskiy : Chief Officer’s Adjutant, distinguished saving General Repninskiy at Austerlitz
— Lieutenant Belopol’skiy : Regiment Adjutant, with Lieutenant Colonel Monakhtin at Austerlitz
* one other company-grade officer was killed or captured at Austerlitz● Strength
— beginning of October on the rolls : 8 staff officers + 54 company-grade officers + 2,070 other ranks (120 NCO’s + 56 musicians + 1,894 rankers) + 136 non-combatants
— not present at Amstetten
— at Krems, one Musketeer battalion, likely the 2nd battalion, was engaged
— at Schöngrabern, the Grenadier battalion was engaged
— total losses prior to Austerlitz : 0 (?) company-grade officers + 299 other ranks (15 died, 119 sick in hospitals, 67 wounded in hospitals, 35 wounded & left to the French, 63 detached, straggling, deserted or otherwise missing)
— estimated average battalion strength at Austerlitz : 17 company-grade officers + 585 other ranks, with the Grenadier battalion perhaps having slightly fewer rankers than the Musketeer battalions
— killed or prisoner at Austerlitz * : 1 staff officer + 2 company-grade officers + 82 other ranks (7 NCO’s + 4 musicians + 71 rankers)
* Reported as of 4 weeks after the battle. The French thought they captured 250 men of this regiment, as counted soon after the battle. The difference could be attributed to incorrect French counting and/or escaping prisoners.● Uniform & Flags
— mitres likely still in use – collar, cuffs & mitre top light-raspberry – shoulder straps & mitre band white – pompons for the Grenadier battalion white, for the 2nd battalion yellow with a white center & for the 3rd battalion red with a white center – woodwork white – 1 “white” flag & 5 “color” flags
— no flags lost during the campaign
http://www.vexillographia.ru/russia/rarmy/novgo1.gif
http://www.vexillographia.ru/russia/rarmy/novgo2.gif24/07/2023 at 17:24 #188807HeroyParticipantGrenz-Infanterie-Regiment Brooder Nr. 7 in 1805
As far as I know ….The battalion of Major Franz von Mihies surrendered to the French during the Ulm phase of the campaign, with 850 grenzers going into captivity at Sternberg and other locations. The battalions of Colonel Baron Paul von Radivojevich (Pavle Radivojević, 1759-1829) and Lieutenant Colonel Graf Carl von Delisimonovich (Karlo Delišimunović, ?-?) were put under the command of Major General Graf Johann Nepomuk von Nostitz-Reineck, together with 2 battalions of the Grenz-Infanterie-Regiment Peterwardein Nr. 9. This brigade was lightly engaged in the woods to Bagration’s right at Amstetten and “advanced to the rear” at Krems and then Schöngrabern.
At Austerlitz, Major General von Nostitz commanded a cavalry formation. Graf von Delisimonovich’s battalion of Grenz-Infanterie-Regiment Brooder Nr. 7 was part of Major General Carneville’s brigade, not under Dokhturov. “Der Krieg 1805 …” gives the battalion a strength of 500 grenzers at Austerlitz. I would have estimated 750-800 as more likely, unless they straggled and deserted in droves. I don’t know where they sent Baron von Radivojevich’s battalion of the Brooder and the two battalions of Peterwardeiners.
26/07/2023 at 12:43 #188867OotKustParticipant. I don’t know where they sent Baron von Radivojevich’s battalion of the Brooder and the two battalions of Peterwardeiners.
I understood that the rest of the regiment ceased to exist. And that the Peterwardeiners if not taken, went off to join Jellacic where, again, they were captured? But that some old reading and frankly, I often don’t read any further off my line of research.
One thing that does arise (another…) is the form of Kienmeyers Horse Artillery under Stütterheim, whose incoherent writing is all I have of the Austrians. Clearly they handled their artillery companies with a firm hand, not losing a single piece the entire campaigns, not even at Austerlitz,
However, I cannot determine whether the two ‘Kavalleribatterien’ were old ‘horse’ or new ‘wurst’ style. I assume the former, bcause at least one ‘Wurst’ battery is referenced by type adjacent to the 5th Column of Lt. Gen. Prince Johann Liechtenstein Reserve Corps. Albeit with a Russian cavalry brigade.
-daveSwinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
26/07/2023 at 16:29 #188878HeroyParticipant“I understood that the rest of the regiment ceased to exist.”
Baron von von Radivojevich was fine, not even a prisoner. And most of the company-grade officers were the same in the 1806 list as the 1805 list. But I really did not find exactly where they went while Graf von Delisimonovich and his grenzers fought at Austerlitz/“[Austrians] handled their artillery companies with a firm hand”
Or had them “advance to the rear” when threatened …. as opposed to French and Russian doctrine which more typically kept a battery in action as long as possible and then had the artillerymen defend their pieces until (hopefully) a counter-attack saved them.For General Kienmayer’s Austrian Avant-Guard, there were 12 Austrian pieces (company identity not known) of Austrian Cavalry artillery from Mährisches Feldartillerie-Regiment von Rouvoy Nr. 3 (8x 6-lber cannon & 4x 7-lber howitzers).
I founnd no information on the use of these pieces at Austerlitz, nor even if they were engaged.
For the 5th column ….
The artillery with General Prince Hohenlohe’s Austrian Cavalry division was the 6 Austrian pieces of Captain Johann von Zocchi’s 2nd Cavalry artillery company from Böhmische Feldartillerie-Regiment Schuhay Nr. 1 (4x 6-lber cannon & 2x 7-lber howitzers).
As far as I knew, all Austrian Cavalry Artilllery used the “wurst” seating for the gunners.
The artillery with General & Adjutant Uvarov’s Russian Cavalry division was the 12 Russian pieces of Lieutenant-Colonel Aleksey Petrovich Yermolov’s Horse Artillery company from 1st Horse Artillery battalion (6x 6-lber cannon & 6x 12-lber unicorns)27/07/2023 at 02:01 #188897OotKustParticipantOr had them “advance to the rear” when threatened …. as opposed to French and Russian doctrine which more typically kept a battery in action as long as possible and then had the artillerymen defend their pieces until (hopefully) a counter-attack saved them.
Harsh Sir!
Certainly not under Stütterheim I’m sure. There are notional inferences about them on the East of Tellnitz advance (obviously with the two Austrian cav covering the open flanks of the Grenzers) who were marching discretely up the slope and through terrain described as “vineyards and orchards” before coming on the voltigeurs(?) or skirmishers at least of the 3eme de ligne.Thence toward the end of battle- the O’Reilly Chevau-Leger charged Boyés Dragoons AND were supported at close range by one of the horse batteries, somewhere on the slopes to the North of the plain landform between Augezd and Tellnitz .
This was the final ‘encirclement’ that cut off the Russians [of 2 and 3 Columns) proper from any escape, but left Kienmayers corps to effect retreat South via the Menitz causeways.
These are all details documented across several commentators and memoires, so I don’t think Kienmayer or his men could be accused of any form of cowardice or hesitation.
[Edit] As quoted by Duffy:-
Tellnitz was now abandoned, and Prince Moritz Liechtenstein formed the rearguard with a force of Austrian cavalry, together with some cossacks which had joined them. The O’Reilly Chevaulegers Regiment drove back the pursuing enemy cavalry, and kept up an accurate fire with its battery of horse artillery, silencing several French guns; the regiment’s action covered the retreat of the infantry, which was carried out in good order over the Satschan pond and so on towards Neudorf.'”
Source: 75. K A AusfUhrliche RelationAs far as I knew, all Austrian Cavalry Artilllery used the “wurst” seating for the gunners.
Well, to over generalise, I had not- because it appears the less than exact English versions implied that wursts were slowly introduced, not wholesale, or am I confusing it with the revolutionary period progress?
I know they led the changes at one point and the French copied them.
I have however, used ‘copies’ for my Austrian 6pdrs as Hinchliffe produced no Austrian guns- I am yet to decide what model of wurst I may take up for at least one battery.
I’d better go study Summerfield* etc, again. I know that ‘Kavalleribatterien’ (sp) implies both ordnance used and train limber structure, but was it also indicating wursts? I couldn’t determine this.
cheers -d
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27/07/2023 at 09:02 #188902HeroyParticipant“an accurate fire with its battery of horse artillery”
I stand corrected. Thank you !
(I really don’t kow Austrians that well.)
27/07/2023 at 10:19 #188911OotKustParticipant(I really don’t kow Austrians that well.)
<:-|-[
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04/08/2023 at 11:25 #189202OotKustParticipantI shall come back to the Russian strengths. I checked through and don’t get the numbers you do, not that I’m claiming any primacy of information or accuracy.
On the issue of Austrian ‘Wurst’ guns etc. “I’d better go study Dawson/ Summerfield* etc, again.” Well I did and they didn’t help by giving 1809 versions of batteries. But they do state ongoing use of ‘wursts’. I also checked the Ospreys by Dave Hollins- a Scottish born historian who reads and speaks German (another mythbuster of sorts for the Austrian data this time) and the time line of wursts is clearly traceable all the way back to 1778 or so.
So you are correct- they were far more common [both gun and howitzer!s!] than other English texts gave credence for.
Another matter, not entirely unrelated was something I read in the proceedings of a refight game organised by KRAC and on the defunct, now archive only (?) web site from around 2000 to 2020 or so…
C’est donc dans des circonstances tout-à-fait analogues que notre Kutusov ludique va se retrouver lorsque le Tsar (sa figurine) lui dira en lever de rideau : “Michaïl Illarionovitch, c’est vous qui commandez”, sans rire, et juste avant l’attaque de Soult !
Is there any substance to such a remark, made in jest yet “sans rire”, by Alexander?
Another point of interest- despite the Novogorod M. rout, they lost no banners! None of the regiment. Seems doubly harsh the punishment meted out to them following the campaign then, when so many other units did lose theirs [to enemy capture].
And finally, a definite side issue, but of course I want to do the L-G Jaeger Battalion- they had rifles! Brilliant! What enemy would my contra-francaise be if they didn’t have the ultimate weapon? Superb. Now to find suitable figures, because my current models don’t quite fit!
cheers d
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04/08/2023 at 19:50 #189207HeroyParticipantc’est vous qui commandez ici, je ne suis qu’un spectateur
вы командуете здесь, а я только зрительThe first instance of this quote – which does indeed sound like Tolstoy – that I could find was from the “Mystical Anarchist” essayist, poet and commentator Georgiy Ivanovich Chulkov, from an early Soviet era work.
Чулков Георгий Иванович (M. 1879 – M. 1939)
Императоры: Психологические портреты.
М. : Госиздат, 1928. — с. 116
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_ChulkovThe “вы”/”vous” is, to me, suspect on its own – the Emperor would have used the familiar “ты/tu” with Kutuzov.
====================
“Novogorod M. rout …. Seems doubly harsh”
Well, I think they idea was that 2 of their battallions ran away. Losing banners while dying in place more or less to the last man was bad, but not as bad as routing. And losing banners was actually very rare !
Of the 32 banners “lost” at Austerlitz (as reported to Kutuzov immediately after the battle), 22 actually made their way back to Russian hands, some not until mid-1808. Of the 10 (net) lost, some where taken by the French, but others were tossed into the lakes, burned, buried, or finally buried in captivity with the bodies of those who saved them. Arkhangel’sk Musketeers reported 1 flag actually taken. Moscow Musketeers reported 2 color flags lost to the 4e régiment de ligne (who themselves lost an eagle to Life-Guard Horse regiment).
The French, by the way, reported at least 25 standards taken (before propaganda inflated the number). We can be sure that they were mostly counting flagstaffs with ornate finials (as if these were aigles) which the Russians did not value. The Russians did the same – often counting drapeaux taken (and even adding copied eagles for display !), which the French did not value.
Another example …. Azov Musketeers also had their award of Saint-George flags for Shöngrabern cancelled.
They started the 1805 campaign with Model 1797 banners : 1 white and 5 color. One color banner was lost at Schöngrabern, along with about 1/3 of the regiment. Another 1/3 of the men were lost at Austerlitz, where another color banner was destroyed to prevent its capture. Their white banner and 1 color banner were hidden by prisoners and returned in January and February 1806. Another color banner was returned with a prisoner in November 1806. The fate of 1 color banner is unclear, but it seems this one was never “lost”. For distinction in 1809 in the Swedish war, the Azovets were permitted once again to have 1 white and 5 color banners. 5 (or possibly 6) new Model 1803 were delivered in January 1810.04/08/2023 at 22:16 #189209OotKustParticipantAhaa then, just artistic license then. Naturally I’ve not seen a War and Peace in thirty years, and never a Russian one at all. Not that it would have any great effect, given no understanding of the language.
Yes I understand the effects of the rout- the penalty seems doubled.
Yes I’m amazed how so many banners were ‘protected’ in person by prisoners- how on earth do you get time to hide them on your body?; no-one was searched in months?; and getting back to Russia… well prisoner exchange I see was in effect then as well.Yes I understand the Azov situation- suitably ignoring their disaster as I’m not going to be modelling them [no I refuse to create a War and Peace Russian army- I’m sure I dont have the time left, or enough compatriots I can play anyway…].
Davout even noted in a battle report that some of his men found the discarded staffs in the swampy edges of the Goldbach (where 99% of his activity remained) but equally discarded them as valueless since they bore no banners.
I did see this snippet of W&P depiction, shame its a reversed copy… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLovWXcjiZI -Bondarchuk’s version. A lot of the ill-informed comments are funny, starting with the calling of a Flugel-Adjutant “The lone Austrian is in white,”… ohh dear…
Of course it allegorical, given the fighting was at night and is known under the French version as the Battle of Schöngrabern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sch%C3%B6ngrabern as discussed.
1805 = Schöngrabern =against Russians (Bagration)
1809 = Hollabrunn = against Austrians (Klenau)As an addendum in addition, I have noted elsewhere that Kutuzovs ‘Army’ was after 1805, left untouched and not even reinforced/ replacements nor uniforms apparently (per the thread https://www.thewargameswebsite.com/forums/topic/other-russian-matters/#post-188086 ) according to the ‘Official History’ for 1806/07 I am still reading.
That campaign undertaken largely with ‘new’ armies direct from Russia; it seems the ‘disgrace’ of command against Kutuzov was equally applied against the men who otherwise were/ had been maimed or died for HIM.-d
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05/08/2023 at 20:02 #189250HeroyParticipantOther than the 4 instances of cancelled Saint-George flags and additional shaming meted out to Novgorod Musketeers, I don’t really see any particular ill treatment of the Russian infantry units that fought at Austerlitz ….
Austerlitz Russian Infantry
— 3 battalions per regiment, except as noted
— establishment in 1805 : grenadier & musketeer battalions 564 rankers, jäger battalions 400 rankers
— all units formed before 1791 unless otherwise noted
— [*] = had a member of the Imperial family as honorary chief officer
— [1799] = served in 1799 against the French, * indicates awarded for distinction
— [Schön*] = awarded for Schöngrabern, X indicates cancelled awardArmy of Podolia Columns 1-5 – Kutuzov
— Little Russia Grenadiers [*] : on campaign against the Turks in 1806, 11th Infantry division
— Kiev Grenadiers [*] [Schön*] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 10th Infantry division
— Apsheron Musketeers [1799*] : on campaign against the Turks in 1806, 11th Infantry division
— Azov Musketeers [1799] [SchönX] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 7th Infantry division – awarded replacement flags in 1809 for excellence in the Swedish war
— Bryansk Musketeers : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 10th Infantry division
— Butyrka Musketeers [formed 1796] [1799*] : on campaign against the Turks in 1806, 12th Infantry division
—Moscow Musketeers : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 7th Infantry division
—Narva Musketeers [formed 1798] [SchönX] : on campaign against the Turks in 1806, 12th Infantry division – awarded replacement flags in 1810 for excellence against the Turks
— Novgorod Musketeers [1799] [SchönX] : on campaign against the Turks in 1806, 12th Infantry division – flags were returned to the regiment in 1810 for excellence against the Turks
— Podolia Musketeers [formed 1803] [SchönX] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 8th Infantry division – converted to jäger in 1810
— Smolensk Musketeers [1799*] : on campaign against the Turks in 1806, 12th Infantry division
— Vyatka Musketeers : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 10th Infantry division
— Yaroslavl Musketeers [1799] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 10th Infantry division
— 6th Jäger [1799*] [Schön*] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 10th Infantry division
— 8th Jäger : on campaign against the Turks in 1806, 12th Infantry divisionArmy of Podolia Column 6 – Rosen
— Galicia Musketeers [formed 1803] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 9th Infantry division
— New Ingermanland Musketeers : on campaign against the Turks in 1806, 12th Infantry division
—Vladimir Musketeers : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 7th Infantry divisionArmy of Volhynia – Buxhöwden
— Phanagoria Grenadiers [1799] : on campaign against the Turks in 1806, 12th Infantry division
— Archangel Musketeers [1799*] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 8th Infantry division
— Kursk Musketeers [1799] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 10th Infantry division
—Old Ingermanland Musketeers : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 8th Infantry division
— Perm Musketeers [1799] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 5th Infantry division
— Pskov Musketeers : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 7th Infantry division
— Ryazhsk Musketeers : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 10th Infantry division
—Vyborg Musketeers [1799] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 8th Infantry division
— 5th Jäger [1799] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 7th Infantry division
— 7th Jäger [1799*] : to Buxhöwden’s 2nd Army in 1806, 8th Infantry divisionGuard Infantry Column – Constantine
— Life-Guard Preobrazhensky [*][2 battalions] : to Saint-Petersburg in 1806
— Life-Guard Semenovsky [*][2 battalions] : to Saint-Petersburg in 1806
— Life-Guard Izmaylovsky [*][2 battalions] : to Saint-Petersburg in 1806
— Life-Guard Jäger [formed 1796][1 battalion] : to Saint-Petersburg in 1806
— Life-Grenadiers [*] : to Saint-Petersburg in 1806, 1st Infantry division05/08/2023 at 21:45 #189253OotKustParticipantI did see this snippet of W&P depiction, shame its a reversed copy… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLovWXcjiZI -Bondarchuk’s version.
I’ve repaired the reversed film for myself… so nice to see Prince Bagration depicted in I trust, an appropriate ‘regimental’ uniform, that of the L-G Jaeger, of which he was ‘Shef’… [not the cook!].
For Mikaberidzes’ bio of him… https://www.napoleon-series.org/research/biographies/bagration/c_bagration1.htmlcheers d
Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
05/08/2023 at 23:19 #189256HeroyParticipantBagration circa 1805
https://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/909751/161887320.525/0_23d223_3734ccd6_orig.jpg
early awards ….
1788 Ochakov Cross
1799 Saint-Anne I
1799 Saint-John of Jerusalem with diamonds
1799 Saint-Alexander Nevsky with diamonds
1799 Austrian Maria Theresa II
1799 Sardinian Santi Maurizio e Lazzaro I
1806 Saint-George II (for Schöngrabern)
more early potraits :
08/08/2023 at 03:30 #189327OotKustParticipantYes, a mans man by all accounts.
Pity I’m not modelling anywhere near him; unless, well one day perhaps!
-d
Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
18/08/2023 at 03:55 #189693OotKustParticipantSidenote : Standard procedure for Russian Battery companies was to immediately begin making hasty field improvements – levelling ground, making parapets, etc. – when stopped in the face of the enemy. And it was also standard procedure to detail any pioneers not otherwise tasked to assist in this work.
For what was an ‘encounter’ within an otherwise major battle, this seems a very focussed action to take. I’ve not seen any depiction of Russians doing so.
Would they really have halted at the cusp of Western edge of the Pratzen plateau when expecting to merely ‘advance’ down the roads or fields (both literally and figuratively) when surprisingly confronted by St.Hilaires French infantry Division just South of the Stare Vinohrady trig point?
As I explained elsewhere I’ve made a couple of multi-purpose fleches, but am now considering the need for some temporary and rustic ” making parapets, etc.”.
I note that the batteries hidden in Polish forests in 1807 were behind contrived abbatis of some kind to reduce the accurate sting of French fire.
-d
Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
18/08/2023 at 10:16 #189697HeroyParticipantWe do not disagree : “when stopped in the face of the enemy” vs.”an ‘encounter'” (whether in a major battle or otherwise). Think Schögrabern vs. Austerlitz in 1805 or Jakubovo vs. Shevardino/Borodino in 1812.
In general, 2x 6-pounder guns moved with each Musketeer/Infantry battalion and 2x 12-pounder unicorns with each Grenadier battalion. Horse artillery was divided between avant/rear guards, but collected into the reserve for a substantial battle, together with Battery companies of 12-pounder guns and 24-pounder unicorns. This “in general” became less strictly applicable each year 1805-1814.
The first field improvement was to level the ground for the pieces. The French did this also, for the same reason : unless using the Russian Markevich diopter sight (deployed from 1808), the pieces’ sights did not accout for uneven ground left/right with respect to the bore.
Sidenote : The Markevich sight was somewhat delicate and required modifications to the pieces (most visible : the button or knob at the rear of the piece had its top 1/3 machined away) and it slowed the rate of firing slightly (one removed the sights’ hanging part before firing). It was carried in a special padded box
Additional Russian field improvements (time allowing) would usually be focussed on the Battery companies : an earthen fletch, then backing this in wood, adding the sides, improvng the path of access to the rear, digging a trench in front, placing aiming sticks, pre-measuring ranges, and so on. The French did this much more rarely.
Of course the improvements “hardened” the Russian artillery positions, but also may have contributed to a tendency to not move/advance those pieces during an engagement. By preference, this rôle would be taken by the Horse companies and the pieces with the advancing battalions.
A “pet peeve” : rules that numerically reduce Russian artillery for “balance”. Having lots of pieces was a cornerstone of their whole military architecture. Examples from 1812 …
Russian 1.5 “standard” corps – 3 Infantry divisions – 36 battalions/144 companies of infantry & 12 squadrons of light cavalry
— 60x 6-pounder guns (of which 12 Horse)
— 24x 12-pounder guns
— 30x 12-pounder unicorns (of which 6 Horse)
— 12x 24-pounder unicorns
126 total pieces / 1,289 pounds total nominal throw-weight, average 10.3 pounds each piece / 4 different modelsFrench 3rd corps – 3 infantry divisions – 30 battalions/150 companies of infantry & 24 squadrons of light cavalry
— 14x 3-pounder Austrian guns
— 20x 6-pounder French guns (of which 8 Horse)
— 16x 6-pounder Württemberg guns (of which 8 Horse)
— 12x 12-pounder French guns
— 6x 12-pounder Württemberg guns
— 8x 7-pounder Württemberg howitzer (of which 4 Horse)
— 12x 24-pounder French howitzers (of which 4 Horse)
88 total pieces / 818 pounds total nominal throw-weight, average 9.3 pounds each piece / 7 different models18/08/2023 at 11:20 #189698OotKustParticipantWe do not disagree : “when stopped in the face of the enemy” vs.”an ‘encounter’” (whether in a major battle or otherwise). Think Schögrabern vs. Austerlitz in 1805
Thank you I find it fascinating. None of this detail have I read except in the Bennigsen* letters/ Memoires and the Danilevski Official Histories since translated. *And when does the damn second title arrive???
The battle maps in Bennigsen 1806/07 clearly show the numerous fleches and redoubts that can’t possibly have been of long standing in such fluid and dynamic campaigning where neither side knew where they would be 2-3 days hence.
These ‘field improvements’ clearly were made to influence enemy decisions and funnel movements- it seems as Napoleon flowed his army corps, so Russian practice applied the same at the tactical level.
I guess I now understand Balaklava- always thought it strange that the Russians deployed with protection as such. That is the only ‘war’ that I possess real, period, if British, books printed at the time.
I feel like 30 years of enjoyable gaming has been stolen from me!
I’ve spent so much time on my French command lately as you know; I’ve put them away for a while before final completion, and been ticking over some terrain- completing some broad river sections, curves/ angles and not least, an ‘adapted’embankment of crenallated housing for a full battery.A “pet peeve” : rules that numerically reduce Russian artillery for “balance”.
Yes well I’ve suggested elsewhere here, and been countered with ‘too difficult’ that such biases need to be removed. I’m a guy with the French, who have to fight ‘new’ Russians (and Austrians its true…) and arguing that Russian companies are not strong enough unless so depicted!
As much as I can be cynical of the ‘Official History’ I find their detail and flow believable, more so than any British/ English or French dissertation on the same matters.
True they do not get the technical detail of the French actions always right, but by their scouring and marauding Cossacks taking multiple couriers, staffs and posts, they certainly often knew more than the French generals did.
What is your opinion on the Lieven book?
“Russia Against Napoleon: The True Story of the Campaigns of War and Peace”.
I haven’t found a chapter I don’t like.
cheers -d
Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!
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