Home Forums WWII Startline – free WW2 rules

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  • #197068
    Avatar photoKeith Flint
    Participant

    I just wanted to flag up this set of company level rules for WW2 currently undergoing play testing. You can join the groups.io discussion group, or go to my Facebook group and join there. Both sites have free downloads of the rules, regular updates and other stuff like QRS, scenario ideas, etc.

    Hope to see you there.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/915148229853205/

    https://groups.io/g/Startline

    #197131
    Avatar photovtsaogames
    Participant

    Hmm, just in the process of redoing my 1/72 Crossfire setup in 12mm 1/144. I’ll take a look.

    It's never too late to have a happy childhood

    #197250
    Avatar photoIvan Sorensen
    Participant

    Ah awesome, thanks for sharing!
    Whats the basing like? Squad bases? Half squads?

    Im still sorting out how I want to do my multi figure bases for 12mm

    #197251
    Avatar photovtsaogames
    Participant

    I took a fast look at the rules, half squad or individual heavy weapons seems to be the thing. Each squad has a rifle team and a rifle/LMG team.

    It's never too late to have a happy childhood

    #197253
    Avatar photoKeith Flint
    Participant

    Basing is like Flames of War. Any FoW gamer will find their basing will work well. Basing doesn’t change for smaller figures or 20mm figures. 28mm figures will be too big for Startline.

    So, 3-5 figures on an infantry base. As Vincent says, most squads or sections have a rifle base and a base with some riflemen and an LMG team.

    12mm stuff would work very well for Startline.

    #197292
    Avatar photoDon Glewwe
    Participant

    Any FoW gamer will find their basing will work well.

    Took a quick glance and saw a (rough?) ground scale of 1:1000.  Wouldn’t that make a team/half-section occupy ~30×50-meters of ground?  -seems a bit too large of a footprint? …dunno

    #197306
    Avatar photoKeith Flint
    Participant

    Don, it gets even worse if you consider that a typical 15mm tank model is about 50 metres long! Sadly, it’s a consequence of the large difference between ground scale and model scale.  This is why some people think 6mm/1-285th models are the way to go, especially for this period.

    But you’ve got me thinking that maybe I could change the 1:1 model scale for infantry to more like 1 base is a section/squad. This would make it possible to reduce the frontages a platoon could cover to something more reasonable.

    Time to join the discussion group Don! This is just the kind of input I need.

    #197307
    Avatar photoIvan Sorensen
    Participant

    Yeah, unless you are doing a “true skirmish” figure scale, range and terrain will always be at least a little wonky.

    The one thing about using squad bases is that it would let people use Crossfire and ASL scenarios (f.x.) whereas half-squad bases isn’t that common.
    And you can still use FOW based figures just fine. It just means you have twice as many to pick from on the shelf 🙂

    #197310
    Avatar photoDon Glewwe
    Participant

    …it gets even worse if you consider that a typical 15mm tank model is about 50 metres long!

    Yup! Here’s a shot of some 2mm mockups and 6mm side by side:

    …and here are two 15mm models (the most that can fit) in the same battle situation:

    Putting five 15mm models out is -at best- inhibitive, and sometimes -as in the case of wanting to position the platoon in the small field at the top of the photo (a not-unreasonable tactical desire)- impossible.

    …it’s a consequence of the large difference between ground scale and model scale.

    I agree – but I see no reason to exacerbate the difficulty by choosing minis that are so large as to directly inhibit/prohibit what players can do on the tabletop.

    dunno…My gaming history involves a lot of friends/family-who-aren’t-gamers-being-roped-into-playing, and presenting them with situations like the above (“Why can’t I put my tanks into that field? …because the models don’t fit?) would see the end of their participation – and I’d have to agree with them.

    There’s no magic bullet/solution, but I think choices can be made to minimize the effects of the difficulties model size creates (-that pesky reality getting in the way of our fun! 🙂 ) .

    …change the 1:1 model scale for infantry to more like 1 base is a section/squad.

    Or -if using 15-20mm figs- keep the ‘section’ as a unit (fine, imo, at this Company level game?) and simply use a single figure to represent it.  It substitutes the “This one guy is really six guys” problem for the “These guys take up 10 (20?) times too much space on the table so you can’t put them where you’d like to” problem, but I’d say the former is the lesser of two evils.

     

    It’s all personal preference, of course.  A game’s objective is to have fun (right?), so if the way it’s being done satisfies that goal then it’s all good.

     

    Time to join the discussion group Don! This is just the kind of input I need.

    Done! …but I do like to give TWW a ‘piece of the action’ (where people can recognize my name/avatar and so avoid my posts!).

    #197312
    Avatar photoKeith Flint
    Participant

    Thanks Don. I have to say your photo example isn’t entirely convincing, using 15mm models on 6mm terrain! Like hundreds (thousands?) of FoW and other 15mm gamers, I have no problems using this size of miniatures on appropriate terrain and a suitable 6′ x 4′ table. Ditto gamers using 20mm models.

    #197314
    Avatar photoDon Glewwe
    Participant

    … using 15mm models on 6mm terrain!

    The terrain is 2mm = ground scale.  The buildings are just representative foam mock-ups and not there as a particular structure, but the sizes of the fields represent the actual terrain and so any conflict comes from the minis themselves and not from putting them in the wrong scale terrain.

    …15mm models…on appropriate terrain…

    If the battlefield were to be modeled to accommodate 15mm minis then it would be the terrain that was wrong, i.e.: fields and structures that were 7.5x too large and, so, representative of something other than a ‘real’ piece of land that doesn’t jibe with the tabletop distances (movement and weapon ranges) used to model the fight.  The 50-meter tank will be moving around a 100-meter wide farmhouse to take up a position along a 1000-meter wall = a visual incongruity that -as I mentioned- jars the sensibilities of off-the-street non-gamers that I find it difficult to explain.  ymmv

    To emphasize: It’s all up to personal taste/preference, but making a choice should, imo, be done with the knowledge (as best can be obtained) of what is gained and lost in that decision.  …or not – the amount of effort/concern put into the thing is as much a matter of taste/preference as the result itself!

    #197378
    Avatar photoKeith Flint
    Participant

    “Taste/preference”? Absolutely. I wouldn’t game with 2mm miniatures if you paid me. But that’s just me. Maybe the guys at FoW have got it right – just ignore any discussion or overt information on scales and get on with playing with the toys. But as you say, it’s appropriate to do that with one’s eyes open.

    #197918
    Avatar photoTom Dye
    Participant

    Hi, Ivan. I, too, have been trying to figure out how to mount mine as well. This is what I will do:

    Most US squads consisted of 3 4 man fireteams (12 figs/ 4 per 40 by 20mm bases x 3 bases) In the US, there are 3 rifle squads in the platoon; 3 rifle platoons to the Company, etc. (Heavy weapons are doled out from the weapons platoon at Company level) So each rifle platoon will have 9 bases. For the first rifle squad, one of the figures on each base for the first rifle squad will be based in the lower rear left corner (on each of the 3 bases). The other 3 figures randomly placed on a whim. The second squad will have one figure in the center back of the base. The third, one figure on the right back corner of the base. So looking left to right, 1st, 2nd (which would be my Squad leader on that base) and 3rd Squad.

    Heavy weapons (Bazooka, LMG team, Flame Thrower, 60mm Mortar Team, etc. will be individually based and placed behind the fireteam base the player wants to attach them to. I am thinking of using 15x15mm bases for singles; 20x20mm bases for mortar team, 20x30mm for prone .30 cal teams, etc. Remember, the Company commander may direct the Heavy weapons Platoon Commander how he wants to assign support to the rifle platoons that will meet his battle plan.

    BTW, a US rifle squad consisted of an NCO squad leader. BAR man and his second and an ammo carrying rifleman, one designated Grenadier (rifle grenade launcher who is also the squad’s best rifleman as a sniper) and 7 riflemen (12 guys total). From mid war on, a squad could have additional BARs, Submachine guns, carbines (mainly issued to Officers, weapons crewmen, backpack R/T guys anyone who would need their hands to be performing other duties with. A carbine was initially issued as a substitute for a .45 sidearm as it provided longer stopping power and remained light weight.

    With armies that had LMGs intregal to the squad level (like Germans with 2 LMG teams, by doctrine, the other members were to provide security for the LMG teams. So I’d mount 1 LMG and 2 “others” on two 20x30mm stands and the third stand would have the remaining 4 guys.

    Using that basing scheme and historical organization, you can build higher formations and the gamer is inclined to use those organizations as in real life. No US squads were assigned LMGs per the TO&E- they were controlled by the Heavy Weapons Platoon commander who attached them as directed by the Company commander, as stated above. Hope this helps you.

    #197937
    Avatar photoMike
    Keymaster

    Done! …but I do like to give TWW a ‘piece of the action’

    🙂

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