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  • #60430
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Hello All

    I bought a while ago, the rules ‘Too few to fight, too many to die’, very good buy and I recommend it to all those who love and complain the Indians of america like me …

    But there are still some minor problems with these rules…

    I do not manage to set up a single army because many of my  figurines of plain and rocky mountain Indians have neither bows or  firearms !

    The arc is the minimum required in the lists of armies of this rule, except many of my figurines do not even have, they have only weapons for melee …

    It was incredible I had not thought about this and so I had not planned !

    This is the first time that such a thing has happened to me for decades that I make wargames …

    Please help me, either you tell me or find weapons fo indian figures (bows and quiver not forgetting firearms of all types ) or If you have the possibility you ask for me  Mr Chris Peers how to budget the Indians figures without bows or firearms ..?

    For help me write me at: [email protected]

    The problem is the same with chiricahua figurines with muskets, there are not a lot…

    Also please If you have the possibility ask for me Mr Chris Peers why only the Crows and comanches can have spears in these rules and why did the U.S. cavalry have repeat carbines only after 1880 …Mr Chris Peers never heard of the Spencers repeat carbines ?

    The U.S. infantry also had many repeat carbines before 1880, as the 13th Infantry U.S. in 1870… Mr Chris Peers never heard of the Spencers repeat carbines ?

    Cheers

    Breton

    #60473
    Darkest Star Games
    Participant

    What scale are you looking for?  And do you have specific tribes in mind?  I know there are 28mm Plains War figures out there of the Sioux and Pawnee among others.

    "I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

    #60490
    Paskal
    Spectator

    The problem is not the figurines, but to find something to rearm some of them to use them with the rules ‘Too few to fight, too many to die’ …

    So I search for arcs with quiver and firearms of all types for figurines of 25 to 30 mm of plains or rocky mountains Indian and chiricahua apaches …

    For help me write me at: [email protected]

    But there are still some minor problems with ‘Too few to fight, too many to die’…

    Page No. 32 of these rules:

    In his army list No. 7, the author confuses Dakota with Lakota …

    In fact those whom they call woodland sioux in his list No. 1 are the Dakota who confront the US army during the war of secession.

    The Sioux of the army list N ° 7, are the lakota …

    Note that the word Sioux is an insult to the Sioux … There are the Dakota and the Lakota, no Sioux …

    Page No. 33 of these rules :

    Why only the Crows and comanches can have spears (or lances ?) in these rules ,because it was they who used the longest models ?

    In this respect it is interesting, someone would have to explain to me how an Mounted Indian wearing a spear or better a lance does how to use his bow or his long firearm if he has one?

    He has three arms?

    He used his spear or his  lance before his bow or his long firearm?

    So he throws it on the opponent and after he harasses the opponent with his bow or his long firearm while the opponent is close to it ?

    It’s illogical, he must first of all shoot at his opponents and then use his spear when he is very close …

    So while he is shooting at the bow or his long firearm, where is his spear ?

    He throws it on his opponents ?

    So that’s what I said, he used his spear or his lance before his bow or his long firearm, so he threw it on the opponent and after he harassed the opponent with his bow or his long firearmwhile the opponent was close to him Is illogical because it must use its bow before its lance…

    This problem of using the spear / lance with the bow or his long firearm exists in all the rules where one can use mounted american indians …

    Note that in these rules, Indians can not throw their spears or spears ?

    I know that the spear / lance of the mounted american indians are not javelins, but it was the only solution to see them use their bows or their long firearm afterwards …

    Or these mounted Indians equipped with spear / lance with a bow or a long firearm, only shoot at the stop ???

    Page No. 35 of these rules :

    The U.S. cavalry have repeat carbines only after 1880 ???

    Mr Chris Peers never heard of the Spencers repeat carbines ?

    Moreover, the spencer carbines which are the only type of repeating carbines to have been used by the U.S.army  disappear with the arrival of the springfield carbines…

    The U.S. infantry also had many Spencers repeat carbines before 1880, as the 13th Infantry U.S. in 1870…

    Cheers

    Breton

    #60998
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    In this respect it is interesting, someone would have to explain to me how an Mounted Indian wearing a spear or better a lance does how to use his bow or his long firearm if he has one?

    I ran across something that bears on your question. This passage comes from the book Life Among The Apaches by John C. Cremony, published in 1868. Cremony was a former cavalry officer in the Mexican War who stayed out west, traveling much in New Mexico, Arizona, California and Mexico in the 1840s-1860s and serving again in the California Volunteers in the Civil War.

    Cremony states several times that he wrote this book specifically to accurately describe and correct misinformation about the Indians he had met in his career in the southwest, not only several tribes of Apaches but others, including Pimas, Maricopas and Yumas. Cremony several times states that he skips and glosses over many events in order to focus on and describe the Indians more fully and accurately. So I take it that in this passage, Cremony intends to include all relevant detail.

    In the summer of 1849, while traveling alone the desert Journada del Muerte from Socorro to Dona Ana in New Mexico, Cremony was chased by a mounted party of Mescalero Apaches. Fortunately for Cremony, he had the better horse, and got away from them. Describing his pursuers, Cremony wrote,

    “There were some forty of them, and none with fire-arms, but mainly supplied with lances, only five or six of the number carrying bows and arrows. These last named projectiles commenced to whistle near me…”

    Apparently these warriors carried lance or bow, but not both. I’m surprised, I would have expected every warrior to carry the full traditional panoply: lance + shield + bow + quiver + war club + knife. But perhaps you’re right, and a mounted man would not try to manage both a lance and a bow.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #61000
    Paskal
    Spectator

    It is simply humanly impossible and it seems that this is never annoyed anyone since the wargames exist…

    If a mounted warrior carries a spear with a firearm or a bow, he must first use his spear to use his gun or his bow then or he is stopped to shoot?…

    This is not an Indian practice, most Indian cavalrymen are real cavalrymen, not mounted infantrymen…

    A mounted Indian ‘lancer’ is not a European or mexican lancer of the same period …

    The European or mexican lancers could take various weapons in addition to their lances and could use all their weapons because their tactics were different.

    Or he fights on foot and keeps his spear for melee when needed …

    If he can throw it (if it is made for that) it will be at very short distance it risks to be hurt or kill.

    Why use a lance for shooting when you have a bow or a firearm?

    I learned of this in the 80s with the armies  lists of the rule Sebastopol, Sadowa and Sedan …

    And in ‘Too few to fight, too many to die’ the Indians without bows or firearms can not be budgeted ???
    This is not normal !

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Paskal.
    • This reply was modified 4 years, 5 months ago by Paskal.
    #61003
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    I can’t comment specifically on the Too Few To Fight rules. Actually, I have a copy on my bookshelf, but haven’t yet read through them.

    But, 19th century European lancers could sling their lances in order to use a carbine, because they had a strap on the lance and a boot as part of their horse furniture to hold the lance butt. I’ve never heard of or seen an illustration of an Indian warrior slinging his lance.

    I’ll watch out for more information.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #61004
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Entirely in agreement with you, it is this detail that makes the difference.

    #61009
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    George Catlin painting of a mounted Comanche warrior, carrying a lance, with a slung bowcase/quiver:

    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/71705819038651933/

    More mounted Comanche warriors, with lance and shield, slung bowcase/quiver. The leading warrior holds his lance in the crook of his arm, while shooting his bow over his horse’s back. In-ter-est-ing. Catlin made his paintings from sketches of live models.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #61014
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Hello Irv


    I want to believe you but that does not change the problem, how it does when he is not lying on the sides of its mount as on this painting to shoot on horseback ..?

    The comanches had no firearms in the time of Catlin?

    If so, how would they hold their spear to shoot …?

    #61074
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    I don’t want to be dogmatic. I don’t ride horses; I can’t shoot a bow; I’ve never shot a black powder firearm; I’ve never been out west. I just read a lot, and I don’t always understand what I read. With that said…

    I’d think that trick of holding one’s lance in the crook of one’s elbow (and pinned under the leg?) while shooting a bow would work just as well if the rider was sitting up, as if he was clinging to the side of his horse. The Comanches in this painting are showing off their acrobatic horsemanship. Plains warriors rode and practiced martial arts from infancy, their lives and livelihoods depended on their skills, so they were very, very good at horsemanship and weapon handling.

    Catlin met and sketched Comanches in 1834. He shows them with no firearms. Catlin shows very few western Indians with firearms. His subjects are generally from the 1830s.

    In John Cremony’s book Life Among the Apaches, he said that the Apaches he encountered in 1849 had no firearms. In 1862, when Cremony again fought across Apache country as a Captain of California Volunteer cavalry, he wrote that the Apache warriors he fought at Apache Pass all had rifles and revolvers. I suppose the Apaches got arms and ammunition in the interim from American traders, after the US took that country in the Mexican War.

    In another book, Wah-To-Yah and the Taos Trail by Lewis H. Garrard, the author recounts a trip he made west from St. Louis to New Mexico in 1847. Not only did the Indians Garrard met have no firearms, the ordinary New Mexicans he met had none either. Poor New Mexican herdsmen used lances on horseback, and bows for missile fire.

    It strikes me (maybe I’m wrong about this) that New Mexico, and probably Mexico proper, had effectively no firearms industry and little trade in the early 19th century. At the time of the Mexican War, the Mexican Army was armed principally with old flintlock Tower muskets, inherited from the Spanish. The United States Army and Volunteers in that war were armed with new percussion-ignition muskets and rifles from the Springfield and Harper’s Ferry arsenals. Superior firepower contributed to the string of American victories in the Mexican War.

    Both Cremony and Garrard proudly wrote that they personally and the parties they traveled with were armed to the teeth with the latest rifles and revolvers, and plenty of ammunition, describing their weaponry and its performance in loving detail. Americans have always had *lots* of guns and ammunition. In extremis, we put faith in firepower.

    Americans began mass producing Committee of Public Safety military muskets before the Revolution, and established national armories soon after independence. Americans were innovators and early adopters of advanced weapons tech like percussion caps, revolvers, fixed ammunition, breech-loaders and repeating rifles.

    Advanced weapons tech was even available under primitive conditions on the American frontier. A few years ago, a re-enactor/docent at Fort Boonsboro in Kentucky showed me a Kentucky Rifle that he had made himself in the fort’s blacksmith shop, using only the tools and materials available to a frontier smith in the 1790s. He pointed out that nearly every metal piece in this fine weapon, barrel and lock, was wrought iron, worked on his own anvil. The only bit of steel in the rifle was the mainspring, which the pioneers imported from east of the mountains.

    So naturally, once they got into the market after the Mexican War, American traders quickly armed the western Indians with abundant, economical, functional shooting irons. Ask Custer about that. We’ve never been shy about selling enemies the guns they’d use to shoot us. Business is business.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #61086
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Okay, let’s say the Arc / Spear or Lance case is settled and the Indians had to develop a similar technique for firearms.

    On the other hand for the points of rules that I point out, no solutions …

    The author wants absolutely that the Indians have at least a bow …

    Is this historic?

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by Paskal.
    #61251
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    The author wants absolutely that the Indians have at least a bow …

    Is this historic?

    Seems fair to me. My information is that the bow was used by all North American Indians as a primary hunting and war weapon, well into the gunpowder era.

    Cremony wrote that Apache warriors who had firearms still carried bows and used them because: Ammunition for their guns was scarce, but they could make their own arrows. Bowfire was quiet, so it didn’t alarm game when hunting, and could pick off enemies by stealth in war. Bow and arrows were light weight, and a hunter or warrior could easily carry them in addition to firearms.

    Um. This does seem to contradict Cremony’s statement that only five or six of the forty Apache warriors who chased him on the Journado del Muerte had bows. I can’t reconcile the apparent contradiction, Cremony wrote both things at different points in the same book.

    Cremony describes one mass hunt on the Fort Sumner reservation, a mounted surround of an antelope herd, where the Apaches used only bows to kill the game. Other sources have also described Indians using bows to hunt long after firearms were available, and double-arming with bows in wartime.

    An anecdote: The Apache war leader Geronimo, after he retired to reservation life, made a regular business of crafting bow + arrows + bowcase sets, and selling them to tourists as *Geronimo’s Very Own Bow And Arrows!*. It passed the time, and raised cash. There are twenty or thirty of these sets in existence, all quite genuine. I saw one the other year at the Frazier History Museum in Louisville. Excellent museum, if you’re ever in town, they have outstanding collections of historic weapons and toy soldiers.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 4 months ago by zippyfusenet.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #61252
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Oh, and a couple of minor corrections. Cremony’s escape from Apaches on the Journado del Muerte was in 1850, not 1849. And there was a second bit of steel in that reproduction Kentucky Rifle that I saw at Boonsboro: the frizzen (I think it’s called), the lid of the priming pan that lifts up, and the hammer flint strikes it to drop sparks into the priming charge and fire the piece. That was steel, would have been imported over the mountains back in the 1790s.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #61259
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Ok, let’s say the author is right, but then the dozens of Indian warriors figures sold by manufacures who do not have a bow or firearms are unusable !

    Same for those who carry spears and who are neither comanches nor crows …

    Now there is sorting to perform in my figurines … Many are unusable for this rule and not historical, they lack bow and quiver or firearms…

    #61267
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Of course Indians besides Comanches and Crows used lances, there are plenty of accounts and illustrations.

    They’re your toy soldiers and you can do what you like with them…but you’re being a lot fussier than I’d be. I don’t have a lot of trouble squinting my eyes and saying, “Let’s imagine that every warrior in this warband is armed with lance, bow and warclub.”, since we’re imagining so much else about our game.

    Furthermore, it’s easy to add weapons to most figures; Rafm, Warlord and Crucible Crush all make 25/28mm weapons sprues with bows, quivers, various firearms and warclubs, and I’ve even crafted bows from wire and glue. But I like to make minor conversions to figures, not everyone does.

    Have fun.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #61268
    Paskal
    Spectator

    The Crows had lances of 12 feet and the comanches had lances of 14 feet, The other tribes, lances from 6 to 7.5 feet.

    So I guess that’s why in this rule, we count as lancers only the crows and the comanches …

    I like historical realism above all and my figurines ‘will only use’ the armament they have on them.

    I know how to sculpt ‘Green Stuff’ for a long time and so I will take care of the missing armament on my figurines …

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