Trench Hammer tanks

[vtsaogames]

Looking at these rules again, thinking of trying them on the guys sometime. I don’t see rules for anti-tank weapons beyond assault with grenades and such. Am I missing something? Can rifle armed squads do damage to tanks at longer range?

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[Ivan Sorensen]

Cheers!

What you want is the “Tank!” section.

Page 18 has notes for the various unit types.

Rifle teams can try, but you generally want something a bit better.

[Kaptain Kobold]

Ivan posted notes on AT-Rifles and K-bullets somewhere else on this forum as well. Just can’t find it at the moment …

The Stronghold Rebuilt: http://hordesofthethings.blogspot.com.au/

[Kaptain Kobold]

OK, it wasn’t Ivan, but here’s the post:

Trench Hammer Anti-Tank fire

I wasn’t sure about this bit: “German machine guns with a belt of armor piercing K bullets, one shot per gun per game: +1 to hit and D6 damage”

MG’s with K-Bullets take a To Hit penaly of 1, yes? (In Trench Hammer, positive To Hit modifiers are bad).

The Stronghold Rebuilt: http://hordesofthethings.blogspot.com.au/

[Ivan Sorensen]

That’s how I read it yeah.

I don’t really have any books on hand that discuss efficiency of armor piercing small arms ammo in the era, but it looks good to me 🙂

I imagine at “trench” distances, a belt’s worth of steel cored ammo would be cause for concern.

[vtsaogames]

A most interesting post. What is October Hammer? Something I should get, it sounds like.

 

Yeah, I think special HMG ammo would be cause for concern since ordinary bullets caused spalling of armor inside Mk IV tanks. The crew had chains in front of their helmets to ward off metal splinters. That and having to pause to air out the tank every now and then.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[Ivan Sorensen]

Russian Civil War by way of Trench Hammer and with a somewhat stylised random army generation system.

[vtsaogames]

Get thee behind me! I need a new period like I need… aw shucks.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[Kaptain Kobold]

Ivan Sorensen wrote:

That’s how I read it yeah. I don’t really have any books on hand that discuss efficiency of armor piercing small arms ammo in the era, but it looks good to me I imagine at “trench” distances, a belt’s worth of steel cored ammo would be cause for concern.

 

That’s my point – +1 To Hit in Trench Hammer is a penalty, not a bonus.

The Stronghold Rebuilt: http://hordesofthethings.blogspot.com.au/

[Ivan Sorensen]

I think the hit mods were posted to be used in place of the +3 that the book sets as default.

So a field gun fires at +0, the MG with AP rounds at +1 and regular rifles at +3.

[Ivan Sorensen]

vtsaogames wrote:

Get thee behind me! I need a new period like I need… aw shucks.

Tell yourself it’s not a new period, its an extension of WW1.

If you start with Archangel, you can even get going using your WW1 Brits and leftover Russian army figures to get going, before buying any dedicated stuff.

[Kaptain Kobold]

Ivan Sorensen wrote:

I think the hit mods were posted to be used in place of the +3 that the book sets as default. So a field gun fires at +0, the MG with AP rounds at +1 and regular rifles at +3.

So:

Tanks have 3 points of Armour (firer takes a +3 penalty)

Field Gun/Tank Cannon – Negates 1 point of Cover or 3 points of Armour – 1 D6 damage

Flame – Negates 3 points of Armour – 1D6 damage

K-Bullets – Negate 1 point of Armour – 1D6 damage

A/T Rifle – Negates 2 points of Armour – 1D3 damage

Rifles, etc – Negate 0 points of Armour – 1pt damage

Rifle-Grenades – Negate 1 point of Armour – 1pt damage

Grenades – Negate 1 point of Armour – 1D3 damage

Yes?

 

The Stronghold Rebuilt: http://hordesofthethings.blogspot.com.au/

[JozisTinMan]

Hey guys, apologies for being late to the party again… I am doing some consulting work on the side and it is eating up my evenings.

Trench Hammer has no ideological party line (October Hammer might…) but what I use is the factors on my tank quick reference cards located here: https://sites.google.com/view/tinmanwargaming/the-great-war

I tried to summarize the tank rules and precalculate the hit factors, partially so I don’t have to crowd the main QRS when I have no tanks on the table.

I include k bullets for Maxim guns and don’t forget about kinemwerfer in the direct fire role!

glad to see folks playing the game, I need to catch up on everyone’s blog posts

 

http://jozistinman.blogspot.com/

[vtsaogames]

Jozi, a book suggestion: beyond the scope of platoon level combat but still worth the read is Zabecki’s “Steel Wind”, about Bruchmeller and his artillery tactics that prepared the way for Hutier’s stoss troops.

 

I’m now reading Poilu but don’t know if it is going to yield data about the composition of French platoons.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[JozisTinMan]

I’ll read just about anything I can find time to read, living in the Information Age it is bitter sweet that it is no longer a quest to find what you want in the stacks of a university library and now it is at your finger tips.

 

let me know how you get on with Poilu, I have the sample on my kindle but have not bought it yet.

http://jozistinman.blogspot.com/

[Kaptain Kobold]

JozisTinMan wrote:

Hey guys, apologies for being late to the party again… I am doing some consulting work on the side and it is eating up my evenings. Trench Hammer has no ideological party line (October Hammer might…) but what I use is the factors on my tank quick reference cards located here: https://sites.google.com/view/tinmanwargaming/the-great-war

Thanks for that – those damage effects make a certain amount of sense. How does an AT Rifle team function in combat not involving a tank? Treat as a Heavy Weapon for movement allow normal firing but only ever inflict 1 point of Damage?*

I notice your QRS includes an alternate Assault combat system that doesn’t have a To Hit roll. How does that work please (I mean I can get the gist of it from the QRS but wondered how stuff like cover is factored in).

*Everything I’ve read abut the Mauser AT Rifle suggests that its recoil was hideous and caused bruising and worse to the shoulder of the firer. I like the idea of adding the following – when an AT Rifle fires, if either of the To Hit dice are a ‘1’ the AT rifle team takes a point of damage, regardless of whether the shot hits or not.

 

The Stronghold Rebuilt: http://hordesofthethings.blogspot.com.au/

[Ivan Sorensen]

We’ve been testing out an opposed roll assault system, where the assault is 1D6+/- modifiers and the loser takes the difference in damage.

I am not 100% certain of exactly how Jozi is applying it.

The way it’ll work in Hammer of Democracy (and be back-ported in, down the road) is that each unit takes 1 damage automatically, then you roll and the loser takes the difference.
No hit rolls or anything.
Its a bit quicker and feels more appropriate for assaulting, I think.

For shooting an AT rifle at some grunts, I’d say 1 damage is fine. Getting plinked at by a giant rifle like that would be disconcerting but hardly likely to break a squad on its own.
I like the idea of the team taking damage from rolling 1’s. Could also represent them slowly losing heart as they wear out their ammo and the enemy gets closer.
I doubt those guys really stuck around for the infantry fire fight if they could help it.

For October, the army “lists” are
Rag Tag army
Regular army
Red/White guard
Czechs
Polish
Latvian rifle
Nationalists
Freikorps
Volunteer army
Konarmia cavalry
Cossack host
Cheka
Shock battalion
Allied intervention
Red Army

They are fairly stylized, rather than being exact TO&E’s (good luck finding that, let alone finding units that actually resembled it in the field)

So you see, it has glorious revolutionaries AND imperialist lackeys. Not a smidge of ideology in sight!

[Kaptain Kobold]

Ivan Sorensen wrote:

We’ve been testing out an opposed roll assault system, where the assault is 1D6+/- modifiers and the loser takes the difference in damage. I am not 100% certain of exactly how Jozi is applying it. The way it’ll work in Hammer of Democracy (and be back-ported in, down the road) is that each unit takes 1 damage automatically, then you roll and the loser takes the difference. No hit rolls or anything.

So cover counts for nothing unless it’s things like trenches where damage is halved?

The Stronghold Rebuilt: http://hordesofthethings.blogspot.com.au/

[Ivan Sorensen]

Thats how I have played it, but Jozi may have something else in mind 🙂

For what its worth, here’s the modifiers that are suggested for the WW2 version (as of right now).

Assault Infantry +1 SMG troops, Assault engineers etc.
Unit has taken 4+ Damage -1 –
Defending machine gun team from front +1 –
All other weapon teams -1 –
Target has taken Damage this Phase +1 –
Gun malfunctioned/unable to fire -1 –
Attacker has additional squad within 6” +1 –
Of target

Players are encouraged to add their own modifiers with some suggestions being:

Factors to consider:
Troop quality.
Flank attack.
Defensive position.
Exhaustion.
Ammunition levels.
Enthusiasm.

[vtsaogames]

Ivan Sorensen wrote:

For shooting an AT rifle at some grunts, I’d say 1 damage is fine. Getting plinked at by a giant rifle like that would be disconcerting but hardly likely to break a squad on its own. I like the idea of the team taking damage from rolling 1’s. Could also represent them slowly losing heart as they wear out their ammo and the enemy gets closer. I doubt those guys really stuck around for the infantry fire fight if they could help it.

 

I like that! It’s much better than cheesy stuff that goes in the other direction. In Panzerblitz, once trucks dropped off their infantry loads (in the face of the enemy) they would then drive adjacent to enemy positions to spot them for friendly artillery and such. Yeah, right. Also read accounts of Bolt Action games where forward observers, once their fire missions were used up, whipped out their pistols and made one-man banzai charges. Please.

 

Give us more rules that simply show the usual responses of human beings. Once a game if you roll yahtzee on 6’s, then assume that a Medal of Honor/Victoria Cross/ Iron Cross/ Hero of the Soviet Union is about to be won and the figure or small unit can do anything.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[vtsaogames]

JozisTinMan wrote:

let me know how you get on with Poilu, I have the sample on my kindle but have not bought it yet.

 

I’m about halfway through. Barthas could write well and he survived over 3 years in the trenches. Poilu is great stuff.

 

Edit: read as far as the Nivelles offensive. This is great stuff, good footnotes by the editors too.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

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