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  • #173747
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    Anybody else bought these rules from Alternative Armies?  I will admit to being intrigued and baffled at the same time.  The combat mechanics look sound and there is a decent range of available troop types and weapons.  It promises games in an hour, yeah right!  It looks as if it will allow games with a large figure count.  For example the first scenario of the four provided for free is 36 stands of troops versus 26 stands.

    Why am I baffled?  I having difficulty envisaging how it plays.  The activation sequence is based on troop Elan which is modified in game by the loss of commanders.  The only reasonable way to keep track of this is by having a die beside every stand of troops as far as I can see.  Is this what anybody else is thinking? I also can’t see any unit cohesion rules.  Just omitted for simplicity?  You can deploy and move as you see fit?

    Also in scenario 1 Recon in Force which looks interesting and seems a good place to start, anybody got any idea what size of battlefield to use.  No turn limit?

    Would love to hear anyone else’s thoughts on these rules.  They are only £3 for the PDF if you feel like discovering what I am talking about.

    #173749
    Avatar photoAndrew Beasley
    Participant

    Been too many years since I played these but seem to remember the Elan being a bit of a pain to keep track of on paper unless you have similar troop types…

    I know The Joy of Wargaming (think he is on here and/or LAF but memory is bad today) tried them – a video of his with them being used is here.

     

    #173751
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    Not sure we are talking about the same thing.  The 6mm USEME rules are a completely different system to the video you have linked to. The 6mm rules have just been released in the last week or so.

    #173767
    Avatar photoian pillay
    Participant

    Tim, I bought the pdf on Friday but not had chance to read it in detail. If I recall the rules use a force roster, maybe record the activated units there? Once I have had a full read through I will get back to you on my thoughts and interpretation on how this works.
    For £3 they are well worth buying for a read if only to gain some ideas. I do like the fact they have included solo rules.

    Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
    http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

    #173768
    Avatar photoAndrew Beasley
    Participant

    My bad (blush).

     

    #173769
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    No worries Andrew, thanks for trying.

    #173770
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    Hi Ian, really look forward to seeing your thoughts.  I have enough tokens and enough dice to give it a whirl with the first scenario as I envisage it.  I like being able to see things at a glance how they are on table.

    #173772
    Avatar photoDeleted User
    Member

    I have almsot all of teh previous version of these. Didn’t know there’s a 6mm version, will get it.

    #173831
    Avatar photoTony S
    Participant

    Elan changes with the loss of commanders eh?  That’s a new wrinkle in the USEME engine as far as I know.  Like Thomaston I’ve got most of the other rules in the series, and broadly speaking, they are quite similar I’ve found.

    But they’re quite reasonably priced (and I think there’s a discount for May isn’t there?) and I’ve got the miniatures for 6mm SF battles, so I guess I’d better head over there right now!

    Love to hear others’ thoughts on these rules.  (Or any other USEME rules to be honest).

    #173833
    Avatar photoian pillay
    Participant

    I think it’s Hols15 it will be on their news page.

    Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
    http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

    #173842
    Avatar photoAndrew Beasley
    Participant

    Well I splashed out (thanks to Ian for pointing out the discount code) and had a quick read.

    …It promises games in an hour, yeah right!

    Should be doable – combat is fast enough not to get bogged down but I think the number of units vs scenario aims will impact length rather than mechanics.

     The activation sequence is based on troop Elan which is modified in game by the loss of commanders. The only reasonable way to keep track of this is by having a die beside every stand of troops as far as I can see.

    I think I would add a dice frame to the base and track the values that way. I was bothered that base size would be an issue but they are not regimented to a great degree. No idea how this would handle the possible negative elan ratings though!!!

    I also can’t see any unit cohesion rules.  

    I’m ok with this shortcoming – command and control in the future should be so well advanced and integrated that widely dispersed units should not be an issue. ECM is an area that’s not really represented and could impact cohesion though…

    There is a vague reference to this in the rules in the advanced / hive mind that dictates the number of normal bases vs command bases but it’s artificial. Simplicity of the rules is the limit here I think.

    You can deploy and move as you see fit?

    Yup – the scenario rules here I think. House rules will be needed else you may just as well set up right next to your opponent (the game will then be well under an hour!).

    Also in scenario 1 Recon in Force which looks interesting and seems a good place to start, anybody got any idea what size of battlefield to use.

    Not read the scenario pack yet but the basic rules mention a 90cm x 90cm table in the ‘What you need to play’ section.

    No turn limit?

    Solo games last 10 turns and morale can leave you with no units but the consolidation phase texts looks like it’s missing a bit as it does not read correctly…

    Not sure if you’ve noticed but the index does not match the pages numbers – this may be a PDF viewer issue but I think it’s an edit(or) issue 🙂

    A few house rules can clear the rough points and my gut feel (as I’m only reading not playing at the moment) is that I would happily use them with my 2mm Germy figures on a smaller table.

    #173883
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    Many thanks for trying to answer my questions Andrew. I am probably guilty of way over analysis before play.  I hope to get the game on table this weekend.  In the mean time here are some more thoughts on the points we are discussing:

    Re Elan and dice.  Realising you probably only need to note any units whose Elan has changed and the company commander perhaps to give an easy visual reference.  Eg I may know all my sides infantry start on elan 3.  I don’t think a unit can go below 1 Elan although the initiative modifier may be negative.  “Every character has an ELAN rating from 6 the highest to 1 the lowest, and this
    represents their training, skills, morale and willingness/readiness for combat.”

    Re cohesion.  I wasn’t thinking so much about the rules being too loose just how this works in practice.  There is no positive benefit for having command stands near their fighting comrades.  But there is considerable negative effect for losing them.  Besides losing firepower I can’t see why you would not just hide your command units.  Probably not platoon commanders but it would seem a good tactic with company and force commanders.  Also if I intend to advance with one platoon and hold an objective with another it would actually seem wiser for the advancing platoon to travel with the command stand of the other platoon.  Am I missing something?

    Re Battlefield I saw the 90x90cm but the map for scenarios looks rectangular not square.  There is a distance given for how far in the attackers can deploy but how can this make any sense if the overall battlefield size is not known?

    Re Consolidation phase.  Yep that sure looks messed up as if something is missing.

    #174173
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    I got very prompt answers when I put these questions up on the Alternative Armies Facebook page.  The intended battlefield size for the scenarios is 120cm x 90cm.  No turn limit for scenarios unless stated.  I was correct there is no positive for having commanders near units they command.  This is intentional.  Just have to see how it plays out.  There is an example of play article to be posted later this month.  I hope to try the first scenario this weekend.

    #174497
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    Got a chance to try the first scenario today and to be honest I was pretty disappointed.  It is a bit fiddly to set up forces. Everything needs carefully labelled and the dice were used to mark Elan which can change in game if commanders are killed. Units activate in order of Elan. The battlefield size and movement rates seem well proportioned. Combat seemed pretty good with suitable modifiers which were intuitive and quickly memorised. Unfortunately the scenario seemed completely imbalanced. One force was attacking dug in infantry and a platoon of tanks to capture three of four objective points. The attackers had a platoon of light grav attack vehicles, a platoon of mechs and supporting infantry. The defending infantry had only short range weapons. Once the defending tanks were eliminated the attacking force could just sit with their vehicles at long range and wait until the defenders were wiped out. Even if the defending infantry charged out of their dug in positions they could still not get the enemy vehicles in range. The odds being they would then be quickly wiped out in the open. No turn limit applied and this would seem essential.

    #174498
    Avatar photoTony S
    Participant

    Firstly, I must say I like your buildings.  Nice job.

    But, just to clarify, you were disappointed with the scenario mostly?  Or was the “fiddliness” of the rules somewhat off putting?

    Or, to sum up, would you play them again?
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    #174499
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    The fiddly set up is an issue.  Playing with 35 stand versus 25 or so today and really not sure I would want to take it 100 or more stands as the rules suggest.  The rules I liked.  The relationship between different unit types, movement rates, how combat worked and how different types of units interacted were all sound.  I am going to play again tomorrow with a different scenario.  There is a points system and I wonder how well throwing equal points armies at each other would work.  But then you have to wonder about how to set up objectives and terrain.  The scenario I played I presume is what would be used to introduce people to the game.  For that it failed horribly, it could well put players off the game.  With a turn limit it might work better but it is still not a great mix of units.

    #174732
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    I tried a second game using the encounter scenario and forces matched in points.  Not much better I am sorry to say.  I tried making up a few units using the points values and they do not seem to make a lot of sense.  That is two equally pointed forces could have vastly different combat effectiveness.  A very basic infantry unit comes out at about half the cost of decent heavy vehicle.  I would take the vehicle every time.  Other anomalies abound.  Infantry support weapons seemed over price and I queried the cost.  The answer came back that it was a typo and they should be 1.5 points not 15 which makes them the cheapest available infantry weapon but with the longest range.  There is no reduction in the cost of grav vehicles even though they are significantly easier to destroy than regular vehicles and have less chance of hitting anything.  I am going to try one more game vehicle heavy with lots of transported infantry to see how it feels.  If not great I will be leaving this system behind.

    #174734
    Avatar photoMike
    Keymaster

    If not great I will be leaving this system behind.

    That is a shame.

    There is no reduction in the cost of grav vehicles even though they are significantly easier to destroy than regular vehicles and have less chance of hitting anything.

    Are they nippier and less bothered by terrain?

    #174738
    Avatar photoian pillay
    Participant

    Full play through has been posted on the blog……

    https://alternative-armies.blogspot.com/2022/06/um016-useme-6mm-science-fiction-example.html?m=1

    might help understand the rules better.

    Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
    http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

    #174769
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    Full play through has been posted on the blog…… https://alternative-armies.blogspot.com/2022/06/um016-useme-6mm-science-fiction-example.html?m=1 might help understand the rules better.

    Understanding the rules is not my problem with the system.  I like the rules, they are intuitive, fast and the relationship between different unit types is good.  My problem is how do you fight a battle when the points system makes little sense?  There are numerous inconsistencies with the force lists published in this article and the unit costs given in the rules.  For example in the article a light vehicle can carry two infantry squads.  I was previously told only super heavy vehicles could do this.  There is no indication of how this is costed if it is costed at all.

    Four scenarios have been published so far.  Two have no force lists so are hard to play as intended.  The fourth requires more figures than I have.  The one I did play is hopelessly imbalanced.

    If you are happy to play games where you just throw down some figures and see what happens this rule set may well suit you down to the ground.  I struggle with playing a game where the outcome may have been determined before play begins by force selection.

    #174775
    Avatar photoMike
    Keymaster

    I mostly ignore points as they can be abused very easily.

    In my WFB games for example, my steamtank whilst a lot of points is worth it as my opponent has no model that can destroy it.
    So I am not going to field it until she has something can harm it.

    I prefer games where the forces are chosen based on knowing what will work and what will break the game.

    If you like the core engine, is it worth just using your own judgement as to what forces make an enjoyable game, or will you be playing with others that will min-max?

     

    #174776
    Avatar photoTim Snoddy
    Participant

    I agree all points systems are inherently flawed.  If basic grunt infantry can’t damage a super heavy tank and they are the only two types of unit on table the relative points values are meaningless.  I was really hoping this would be scenario based.  The only reason I am looking at points is because my experience with the scenarios has not been great.  It just feels a bit of a clumsy launch.  Questions I have asked have been answered quickly but then something pops up that contradicts the information given.  The other major sci fi gaming I am playing at the moment is Grim Dark Future and it is incredibly well balanced, yet the rules are actually simpler than USEME and run to a grand total of 15 pages.

    I do think it may have a very different feel with more vehicle based armies and infantry in transports taking a secondary role.  Happy to give that sort of game a try using the points in the rule book as a guide.

    #174802
    Avatar photoAndrew Beasley
    Participant

    News article today – play through examples https://www.thewargameswebsite.com/news-from-alternative-armies-397/

    #174804
    Avatar photoMike
    Keymaster

    I think that is the one referred to above?

    #174813
    Avatar photoAndrew Beasley
    Participant

    I think that is the one referred to above?

    New glasses due in two weeks (blush)…

    I quickly looked – saw the format was different and posted the link.

    Write 100 times:

    Do not just look at the pretty pictures, read the text!!!

    My bad.

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