Home Forums Horse and Musket General Horse and Musket What do you call mid-to-late 19th century gaming?

This topic contains 33 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by  Fredd Bloggs 4 months ago.

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  • #107273
    Ivan Sorensen
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Pre-rifles, the usual term is “horse and musket” and before that we have “Pike and shot”.

    Do you have a general term for the post 1840’ish-to-pre-magazine rifles era?

    I like Neil Thompson’s term “Rifle and Saber” from the One Hour Wargames book.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://sites.google.com/site/nordicweaselgames/

    #107276
    Alan Millicheap
    Alan Millicheap
    Participant

    The Hyphenated Wars (seriously)

    #107279
    John D Salt
    John D Salt
    Participant

    Being British, I’d have it as “rifle and sabre”, which is what I was about to suggest.

    Long before “One Hour Wargames”, in 1973, John Young of blessed memory designed “Rifle & Saber” for SPI.

    All the best,

    John.

    #107280
    Ivan Sorensen
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Ah, maybe that’s the origin of the term then.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://sites.google.com/site/nordicweaselgames/

    #107295
    MartinR
    MartinR
    Participant

    I generally just call it “Nineteenth Century”,  although of course the Napoleonic Wars might get a small category of their own:)

    Rifle and Sabre, Age of Rifles, Rifle and Kepi  (or Rifle and Pickelhaube), Battles for Empire might all be equally apt, and are all the names of fine Wargames rules or computer games.

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #107296

    Age of Rifles works well imho.

     

     

     

    "Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?"

    Axel Oxenstierna

    #107297
    grizzlymc
    grizzlymc
    Participant

    I’ve always called the period 1860-1914 inclusive as Horse and Rifle. You can terminate it with hydraulic recuperators and 30 cal weapons if you really want. You can probably extend it to 1919 outside the Western Front.

    #107309
    irishserb
    irishserb
    Participant

    Given the subjects that I game in that time frame, “Colonial” and “Victorian” have always worked fine.

    #107310
    Not Connard Sage
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Age of Empires. 🙂

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #107335

    Given the subjects that I game in that time frame, “Colonial” and “Victorian” have always worked fine.

    What I’ve often heard it called.

    John

    "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

    --Abraham Lincoln

    #107336
    Ivan Sorensen
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    Is stuff like Franco-Prussian war considered “Victorian”?

    This may be because I am not an English-speaker natively, but I always associated “Victorian” with specifically meaning “Stuff English people got up to at the time” 🙂

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://sites.google.com/site/nordicweaselgames/

    #107354
    MartinR
    MartinR
    Participant

    I certainly wouldnt describe the FPW as Victorian.

    Victorian and/or Colonial is battling the Mahdi etc. I wouldn’t even call the Crimea Victorian (although it clearly took place during Victoria’s reign).

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #107361
    grizzlymc
    grizzlymc
    Participant

    One could call Crimea Wellingtonics, the only thing I never got was why the French gave up on columns once the Corsican Dwarf started munching wallpaper and fought in two deep lines. It was almost as though the Wellingtonic wars never happened.

    Then, ACW seems quite different from APW, I’m not sure how I understand how the FAW was fought, and FPW seems to be a class of its own. When would WWI have looked more like WWI and less like FPW?

    #107362
    Patrice
    Patrice
    Participant

    Is stuff like Franco-Prussian war considered “Victorian”?

    This would cause interesting reactions amongst French historians (not to mention French wargamers).

    (although Napoleon III is buried in England, and his son died in a Victorian war but it happened later).

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    http://www.anargader.net/

    #107370
    irishserb
    irishserb
    Participant

    Outside of Colonial or Victorian, I’ve never heard anyone trying associate a name or label  with that time frame.  If I needed to address it, I would say “mid to late 19th Century”.  I do find this thread curious though.

    In the US, “Victorian” is a common term referring to that time-frame (plus a few more years at the tail end).  It doesn’t need to have anything to do with Queen Victoria, or the English, and actually seldom does in my experience.  “Victorian” is a term that I run into extensively in association with literature, clothing, politics, religion, furniture, glassware, architecture, etc from that specific time frame.  I’ve heard it use with less frequency in gaming, than outside of the hobby, to refer to items that date from the start of Victoria’s reign to an arbitrary date ranging from about 1900 to 1914.  More often, it seems to be used in discussion about post ACW items or subjects that pre-date WWI, most probably a function of the evolution of manufacturing processes.

     

     

     

    #107373
    vtsaogames
    vtsaogames
    Participant

    I either call it late 19th century, rifle and saber (SPI had a game of that name), or late black powder. To me, Victorian is more a description for period clothes, architecture or social mores.

     

    The French still fought in columns in both the Crimea and in Italy in 1859. The columns were shielded by clouds of rifle-armed skirmishers and aided by rifled artillery. That and tactically inept opposition made the difference.

    https://corlearshookfencibles.blogspot.com/

    #107374
    Autodidact-O-Saurus
    Autodidact-O-Saurus
    Participant

    In very broad terms I think of it as ‘Victorian’ if I’m talking to the general public. More often than not, though, if the audience is made up of war-gamers I refer to the specific conflict.

    Self taught, persistently behind the times, never up to date. AKA ~ jeff
    More verbosity: http://petiteguerre.blogspot.com/

    #107377
    Patrice
    Patrice
    Participant

    One could call Crimea Wellingtonics, the only thing I never got was why the French gave up on columns

    I’m not a specialist of the period, but it seems the campaigns in Algeria since 1830 developped light infantry tactics in the French army (which in turn were copied by Hardee’s book etc. which served for drill training in the ACW).

    In the US, “Victorian” is a common term referring to that time-frame (plus a few more years at the tail end). It doesn’t need to have anything to do with Queen Victoria, or the English, and actually seldom does in my experience. “Victorian” is a term that I run into extensively in association with literature, clothing, politics, religion, furniture, glassware, architecture, etc from that specific time frame.

    Probably associated with in the English language, regarding such items. But …do Americans refer to the ACW as a Victorian war?

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    http://www.anargader.net/

    #107380
    John D Salt
    John D Salt
    Participant

    Age of Empires. 🙂

    “Age of Empires” isn’t terribly specific. Surely as wargamers we need to distinguish at least:

    Age of Empires obtained by men with pointy sticks
    Age of Empires obtained by men with pointy sticks and chariots
    Age of Empires obtained by men with pointy sticks, horsies and boats
    Age of Empires obtained by men with really long pointy sticks
    Age of Empires obtained by men with really long pointy sticks and elephants
    Age of Empires obtained by men with horsies and bows and arrows
    Age of Empires obtained by men with big shields and little stabby swords
    Age of Empires obtained by men with most of the foregoing plus the odd camel
    Age of Empires obtained by men with armoured horsies and canopeners on pointy sticks
    Age of Empires obtained by men with ponies and bows and little furry hats
    Age of Empires obtained by men with heftily armoured horsies and twangy bows
    Age of Empires obtained by men with really long pointy sticks and gunpowder
    Age of Empires obtained by men with sailing ships, unexpected horsies and the odd blanketful of smallpox
    Age of Empires obtained by men with muskets
    Age of Empires obtained by having the Maxim gun when they have sharpened fruit
    Age of Empires obtained by blood and iron
    Age of Empires obtained by tanks and aircraft and radio propaganda
    Age of Empires are out of date call it a multinational power bloc
    Age of Empires obtained by space rockets and laser cannon
    Age of Empires obtained by jump-ships and quantum vacuum collapsers

    All the best,

    John.

    #107381
    Not Connard Sage
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Age of Empires. 🙂

    “Age of Empires” isn’t terribly specific. Surely as wargamers we need to distinguish at least: Age of Empires obtained by men with pointy sticks Age of Empires obtained by men with pointy sticks and chariots Age of Empires obtained by men with pointy sticks, horsies and boats Age of Empires obtained by men with really long pointy sticks Age of Empires obtained by men with really long pointy sticks and elephants Age of Empires obtained by men with horsies and bows and arrows Age of Empires obtained by men with big shields and little stabby swords Age of Empires obtained by men with most of the foregoing plus the odd camel Age of Empires obtained by men with armoured horsies and canopeners on pointy sticks Age of Empires obtained by men with ponies and bows and little furry hats Age of Empires obtained by men with heftily armoured horsies and twangy bows Age of Empires obtained by men with really long pointy sticks and gunpowder Age of Empires obtained by men with sailing ships, unexpected horsies and the odd blanketful of smallpox Age of Empires obtained by men with muskets Age of Empires obtained by having the Maxim gun when they have sharpened fruit Age of Empires obtained by blood and iron Age of Empires obtained by tanks and aircraft and radio propaganda Age of Empires are out of date call it a multinational power bloc Age of Empires obtained by space rockets and laser cannon Age of Empires obtained by jump-ships and quantum vacuum collapsers All the best, John.

     

    <sniffs> Don’t see any mention of elephants, therefore your argument is invalid.

    🙂

    Yes there is.

    buggerit. 🙁

     

     

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #107382
    vtsaogames
    vtsaogames
    Participant

    Salt: Age of Empires obtained by having the Maxim gun when they have sharpened fruit

     

    Me: 

    https://corlearshookfencibles.blogspot.com/

    #107383
    Ivan Sorensen
    Ivan Sorensen
    Participant

    I propose that mister Salt wins the thread.

    Nordic Weasel Games
    https://sites.google.com/site/nordicweaselgames/

    #107385
    John D Salt
    John D Salt
    Participant

    <sniffs> Don’t see any mention of elephants, therefore your argument is invalid.

    🙂

    Yes there is.

    buggerit. 🙁

    And quantum! Millenium hand and shrimp.

    All the best,

    Foul Old John.

    #107386
    Guy Farrish
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Proto-modernist, post Romantic warfare.

    (Ruskinite pre Raphaelite wars?)

    #107390
    MartinR
    MartinR
    Participant

    One could call Crimea Wellingtonics, the only thing I never got was why the French gave up on columns once the Corsican Dwarf started munching wallpaper and fought in two deep lines. It was almost as though the Wellingtonic wars never happened. Then, ACW seems quite different from APW, I’m not sure how I understand how the FAW was fought, and FPW seems to be a class of its own. When would WWI have looked more like WWI and less like FPW?

    All armies still fight in column, they are just a bit of more spread out. The deployment of eg a British Brigade on the Somme two companies wide and eight companies deep on an 800 yard frontage certainly looks like a column to me, as do the various panzer regiment and division assault formations neatly illustrated in Jentzs Panzertruppen, and also the assault formation of a 1980s Soviet Motor Rifle Division.

     

    WW1 stopped looking like the FPW in late 1914 on the Western Front and at some point in 1915 on the Eastern Front.

     

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #107392
    grizzlymc
    grizzlymc
    Participant

    That seems like a reasonable cut, I suspect that you can probably use horse and rifle rules for Palestine and Mespot. From the little I know of the RCW, you could probably do the same. Bugles and a tiger seemed to me to be more horse and rifle than WWI or WWII.

    I get what you mean about columns, but post 1815, they seem to have fled the battlefield. I have heard that the French were still using them in Italy and that the Austrians tried using them against needle guns. Similarly, I have never quite got the evolution of frontage. The Crimea seems to have been fought on files scrunched up Napoleonic style, so also the ACW. By Balcks’ treatise, close order was about a metre frontage, roughly twice that of 1815. I have never seen an FPW drill manual, but that would be interesting.

    #107396

    Fredd Bloggs
    Participant

    For me, the FPW look ended on the Transvaal Veldt.

    #107436
    vtsaogames
    vtsaogames
    Participant

    I get what you mean about columns, but post 1815, they seem to have fled the battlefield

     

    Again, the French used columns at the Alma and Inkerman in the Crimea. True, the companies that made up the columns were in 2 rank lines, but the battalions were in columns of divisions. Likewise in Italy in 1859, which convinced the beaten Austrians to go with attack columns just in time for the 1866 war against Prussia and their breech loading needle guns. However, the Austrians ignored the part about clouds of skirmishers. They even often used the Jager units in each brigade as crack shock troops in column instead of using them as skirmishers. The Russians fought the Crimean war in column – one of the reasons they took such heavy losses.

     

    Both Union and Confederates used some battalion columns early in the war, and after Upton’s column (more properly a wave assault), massive columns were used in Virginia more than once in 1864.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by vtsaogames vtsaogames.

    https://corlearshookfencibles.blogspot.com/

    #107451

    Chris Pringle
    Participant

    C19. (Yes, I know, that does stretch back to include Napoleonics.)

    Chris

    Bloody Big BATTLES!

    https://uk.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/BBB_wargames/info

    http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/

     

    #107459

    Etranger
    Participant

    <sniffs> Don’t see any mention of elephants, therefore your argument is invalid. 🙂 Yes there is. buggerit. 🙁

    And quantum! Millenium hand and shrimp. All the best, Foul Old John.

    There was very nearly a Union Elephant Corps in the ACW… https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/lincoln-rejects-king-siams-offer-elephants

     

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Etranger.
    #107462
    General Slade
    General Slade
    Participant

    There was very nearly a Union Elephant Corps in the ACW… https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/lincoln-rejects-king-siams-offer-elephants%5B/quote%5D

    John Sedgwick’s famous last words would seem rather prosaic if he had been sitting on an elephant when he got shot.

    #107465

    Etranger
    Participant

    To quote Mr Lincoln: “When you have got an elephant by the hind legs and he is trying to run away, it’s best to let him run.”

    https://www.marchmatron.com/2017/05/pachyderm.html

    #108877
    Howard Whitehouse
    Howard Whitehouse
    Participant

    I’d say there’s no clear, obvious winner on the name front. In my recent project, ‘A Gentleman’s War’ I have used terms like ‘pre 1914’ and ‘late C19th ‘ a fair amount. I like ‘Wellsian’, but that only really applies to a style of wargame rather than a historical era.

    I do all my own stunts.

    #108909

    Fredd Bloggs
    Participant

    Wellsian also has Sci Fi connotations.

     

    You could go Kiplingsian, but again more colonial in flavour.

    Bismarkian is actually probably the best, or Azimuth of Empires.

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