What Ifs?

[Mick Sayce]

I have two What Ifs that I have often wondered about, both of which I -at some time- would like to run as solo campaigns.

The first is if the Mongols had continued their advance into Europe how far would they have got and could anyone have stopped them? I have nearly all the necessary 10mm figures to run the whole campaign if my Polish double up for just about all of the European nations so troops aren’t a problem, after all in 10mm it’s just the colour schemes that changed across Europe, not the style or equipment.

The other was only thought of a couple of months ago as we were returning from a camping holiday in Sussex. We were driving through the villages of Kent when I had an inspirational idea. What if D-Day had failed and the Germans  had managed to organise an invasion of their own? The buildings were so varied, a lot of them hadn’t changed since Cromwell was a lad and so it would be a doddle to make them in 6mm. A couple of weeks ago I was in The Works and found a 1:50,000 reprint of the 1920’s Cassini Maps for my area so the campaign area was also sorted. Now, maybe after I have caught up with my 10 Ancient Romans and Celts I need to get me an Allied army. I already have the Germans (Das Reich at 1:5) so they are sorted. I also have a similar sized force of Russians but am loathe to get them to stand in, as a bit of a purist, it’s too much of a visual leap.

The largest stumbling block is time.  Both of these rather grandiose projects could get out of control if I let them so at the moment they are just simmering.

 

Anyone have any thoughts or similar plans?

Blog at : http://thewordsofsubedai.blogspot.co.uk/

[Ivan Sorensen]

My gut feeling on the Mongols is that they would stop eventually, for much the same reason they did historically: The big man dies and they have to go back to figure out who the next one will be.

I don’t do much medieval gaming but it’d be a fun exercise in any event no doubt. Remind of me playing Crusader Kings 2 on the computer.

 

The what-if I might do in the future is a tongue-in-cheek 2nd american civil war. Communist northerners versus Theocratic southerners. Not very serious at all but I don’t know if I’ll ever get around to it.

[Mick Sayce]

Ivan Sorensen wrote:

My gut feeling on the Mongols is that they would stop eventually, for much the same reason they did historically: The big man dies and they have to go back to figure out who the next one will be.I don’t do much medieval gaming but it’d be a fun exercise in any event no doubt. Remind of me playing Crusader Kings 2 on the computer. The what-if I might do in the future is a tongue-in-cheek 2nd american civil war. Communist northerners versus Theocratic southerners. Not very serious at all but I don’t know if I’ll ever get around to it.

Yes, that would be my take on it as well, it would only be the time of his death that would change things.

 

Don’t know whether you know that about the ACW, Harry Harrison, the Sci-Fi author wrote a trilogy of books about England getting involved in the ACW and getting invaded because of it. A fun read and has interesting possibilities. The book titles all start with Stars and Stripes…

Blog at : http://thewordsofsubedai.blogspot.co.uk/

[Jonathan J. Reinhart]

All of those what-ifs sound intriguing.  Recently I’m doing my own hybrid imagi-nation solo campaign drawing on the world of the Ancient Roman Empire as inspiration.  I’m blending computer gaming with storytelling and miniatures wargaming for this.  It is handy having Total War: Rome II, Excel, Word, Wars of the Faltenian Succession, Hail Caesar, and both HaT and Caesar Miniatures 1/72 scale models for the undertaking.  So far it is not going exactly as planned.  One side is doing too well.

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[Ivan Sorensen]

My temptation is to invent some nations for faux-napoleonic warfare with my own nations and uniforms, kinda like how the AK47 guys do for African Republics.

[Anonymous]

I suppose I would have to come up with a world setting where the current UK fractures into uncooperative nations and Frances is somehow lessened as a Colonial Power so that (with USA fixated with internal divisions and Latin America) “Other Nations” could be the major players in a “Colonial” or “Colonial VSF” setting, possibly an African nation coalescing as a international player.

[Thomas Nissvik]

I read somewhere that SF writers are allowed one “unreal” thing in the world they present, more than that and the ability of the regular reader to buy into it starts to drop. I think it is the same for counterfactual history: you get to make one major change, then follow that to its logical conclusion.  My suggestion for your Mongol case is simply: the Mongols sort out their succession by leaving the Great Khan system and becoming The United States of Mongolia with different areas of control and responsibility. Think of it as the US in the 1800s. Ruled from Washington and constantly urging young men to Go West to carve new states in the Union out of the wilderness, if need be by slaughtering the locals.

 

So many toys, so little time.
http://getitpainted.blogspot.se/

[Iain Fuller]

Here’s one I have always wondered about: What if Queen Victoria had been a man?

Would Prussia have tried it on with Hannover in 1866 if the union with Britain was still on due to Salic law? A nice excuse for having Brits vs Prussians with allies on both sides if they do.

If they hadn’t though: no unification of Germany and hence all that 20th century bother we had wouldn’t have happened, or maybe not in as bad a way.

 

In a club I used to go to in the 80’s there was a moderns campaign run that used the old kingdoms of Britain, we had a number of points with which to buy equipment with based on length of borders I think. My Mercians were equipped with a mix of British, US and German kit whilst the Cornish went for Soviet ‘cos it was cheap and Strathclyde was completely Israeli. Good fun.

[Mick Sayce]

@Mr Fuller, always good to know a fellow Irons man.

Although the two periods you mention don’t really interest me per se, I like the equipment idea even though I have absolutely no use for it. As I mentioned on another post, another What If? could follow the Harry Harrison trilogy of Stars and Stripes books where the ACW petered out early on as both sides got together to bladder the Brits. Jingoistic it maybe but I enjoyed them.

 

@Thomas, the reality was that actually happened. Chinggis Khan’s grandsons started the rot of the empire when Batu from the Jochid line formed the Golden Horde , Hulegu from the Toluids formed the Ilkhanids, then you had the Chagatids as well as Qubalai Khan (also from the Toluid line) in Mongolia and China. By continuing your thought on the United States of Mongolia it was already there so only a little tweaking would be necessary. Interesting idea.

Blog at : http://thewordsofsubedai.blogspot.co.uk/

[Thomas Nissvik]

Cool, I had no idea I was that close to reality, my knowledge of the Mongols is pretty limited. As for my own Imagi-Nation it is merely a tweaking of someone else’s: in my Dux Gondorum campaign the Uruks of Isengard invade Gondor, simply because I love the Isengard and Gondor miniatures from GW and want them to fight each other.

So many toys, so little time.
http://getitpainted.blogspot.se/

[Buff Orpington]

One that I’m pondering is , “What if the War of 1812 went very badly wrong for the USA?”  No British reconquest involved, Europe & India were quite enough. Perhaps the British began arming and agitating the tribes south of Canada to set up a buffer zone between a restricted USA and Canada. If this inhibited westward expansion and industrial development in the north there may have been no Civil War. A USA dominated by the South may have been less attractive to Roman Catholic migrants. These may have headed to the Spanish & Mexican territories. That shift in manpower on its own would have radically altered history. Imagine Hollywood making Spanish language movies (It’s still in Mexico) about the brave Irish helping defend the republic.

[has.been]

Other ‘What if’s:-

San Francisco, the Presidio (garrison) was built by the Spanish as a stopper against the southern expansion of the Russians from Alaska!! If there was no great USA western expansion trhen you have the possibility of Tricorn/Napoleonic Russians V Spanish with native Indians & Cossacks thrown in.

USA never buys Alaska, the guy who did it as a private purchase was ridiculed at the time. USa has a very close neighbour , the USSR !!!!

Napoleon does not sell Louisiana to the USA

The Republic of Texas does not join the USA, changes the ACW a bit.  Of note some people inTexas want do withdraw from the USA  NOW !!!   (not long after Texas won independance from Mexico, a group of radicals decided to break away from Texas, they declared the State of ‘Freedonia’ [A name much used by the Marx brothers in their films] In reality they galloped out of one end of town when Texican cavalry arrived at the other end, but ‘what if?)

ACW Britain invades from Canada, it very nearly did happen. A Union warship stopped a British ship (that was bad enough) and removed two Confederate agents (how dare they!!) Britain objected in the strongest terms over this insult. Lincoln had the agents quietly released over the Canadian border, saying, ‘One war at a time’  but what if he hadn’t?

Fall of Constantinople. The Ottomans were about to call off their long seige, but decided for one last day of attack. On the last attack of the day they found ONE sally port that had not been shut properly. That tower fell, the next towers saw the Christian flags fall & retired. A domino effect led to the city falling. What if that door had been shut?

WW2 the German landings on Crete. One New Zealand unit, under great pressure, withdrew from a hill overlooking a crusial airfield & the Germans rushed in transport planes, but what if…?

May I recomend the book ‘The Moscow Option’ It take a fact (Upon returning from visiting his generals on the Russian front , Hitler’s plane skidded on the ice & NEARLY crashed) and twists it a bit (The plane crashes, Hitler survives but is in a comma). The High Command hush it up, I know the Nazi party not telling the truth who would ever believe that, they are then free to run the war without Hitler interfering.  I will not spoil it, in case you want to read it, but I will mention a few bits:-They redeploy a chunk of the Luftwaffe during the Russian winter. So instead of just freezing in Russia, they support a Crete style invasion of Malta;  Rommel gets enough supplies & men to break through the British. He crosses the Suez canal & invades Palestine (Tells his wife, in a letter, he can’t get over seeing Bethlihem in his battle orders);  The SS & the Whermacht fight each other in a power struggle.

 

[Iain Fuller]

I’ve read the Moscow Option too, good read and a good base for what-iffery.

I’ve got another called ‘The Napoleon Options’ – obviously in the same vein but set during Napoleonic era. There’s some good ideas in that too, well worth a look if you can find it.

[warren coleman]

I really like the idea of the British becoming involved in the American Civil War, may be the French joining in from Mexico.

Would Crimea range figures be suitable?

[has.been]

Gringo miniatures do a range of Maximillian Wars that would be useful, you might even ‘what if’ the Mexicans had warmed to Maximillian and add some Mexican units to the French.

[Thomas Nissvik]

I have a few of the Gringo FFL figures from the Maximilian range. They are worth getting just for the fun of painting. Brilliant figures!

So many toys, so little time.
http://getitpainted.blogspot.se/

[Marc Coupland]

The ACW thing in Harry Harrisons “Stars and Stripes” series got me really interested in imagi-nation type campaigns but I never really saw other protagonists making a dent in that conflict enough to make it interesting enough. Then I saw the Great Paraguayan War of about the same period – with Paraguay verses Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay but nothing to stop you there: Spanish and Portuguese already around about, Britain, France, US, Mexico etc. as potentials with the bonus of a lot of figures around to make it worth trying (Franco Prussians, ACW, Mexican, Garibaldi types from all your favourite manufacturers as well as tailor made Kings Carbine Miniatures and what about the new Perry Canadian Militia range). I’m a bit slow painting so I’m doing 10mm while I pull together enough 28mm to make it interesting

[The Gray Ghost]

I’ve always thought an independent 19th century Egypt would be interesting. The Khedive was attempting to modernize and even to form an empire.

Beware The Gray Ghost

[willz]

Some excellent ideas all very tempting.

I have on a slow burner the idea of the first world civil wars, basically 1935 civil unrest in England with Scotland declaring independence supported by Spain or Germany who then have a civil war.  America civil unrest in the south, southern states break from the union supported by Japan.  Lots of different alterative history on different continents, Russia invades Poland 1936.

All these ideas just to use my WW2 stuff, got it saved somewhere on my computer must have a reread.

[Joe]

I have toyed with the idea that Pearl Harbour was orcehstrated by Churchill as he was annoyed at the US dragging their heels getting into the conflict.
But after teh war was all done as it actually happened, the US found out and then all hell broke lose.
The loss of so many people however meant that hostilities started as a naval blockade across the Atlantic and then slowly develoiped into a proper war.

[Author]

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