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  • #56035
    Don Glewwe
    Participant

    …show some common courtesy to the OP…

    Sorry – I didn’t want to hijack, then realized that Whirlwind was the OP and felt even more foolish (if that’s possible).

     

    Sincere apologies for the cross/mis-communication and resultant mess. 

    Further design discussion (if desired) can occur in a more appropriate thread.

    https://brawlfactory.net/

    #56310
    Steve Burt
    Participant

    One of the many interesting things about ‘Bag the Hun’ is that it models pilot performance more than aircraft.

    Sure, it has all the stats for the different planes, and Me109s can outdive Spitfires, which in turn can out-turn the Me109s.

    But it also allows better pilots, or formations with an altitude advantage, to move more than once, as well as randomising the order in which people get to move and fire (unless you manage to get on someone’s tail). There are also huge advantages to keeping formation and having  awing man to watch your back. I’ve heard people criticise this aspect of the rules, but to my mind it is what makes it interesting; it’s not just a guessing game with added physics, which many air combat games are, it’s a psychological thing which models the pilot’s state of mind. The chaos of air combat comes across, as does the importance of having buddies to look out for you, and the ‘hun in the sun’ is a very real menace.

     

    #56314
    B6GOBOS
    Participant

    Not very original.  Plain mat with wings of war ww1 aircraft.

    #56321
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    I’ve heard people criticise this aspect of the rules, but to my mind it is what makes it interesting

    I like Bag the Hun, but I can’t get with the idea of some pilots and formations moving twice in the same turn (compared to once for its opponents).

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #69457

    Still struggling to mount wing struts in 1:144 WWI models, but I’ll certainly be aiming to do multiplayer dogfights, drawing largely on my old days with Dawn Patrol (good game, except for using squares rather than hexes) and good old Red Baron on my father’s PC.

    #69562
    Jim Jackaman
    Participant

    I am a firm fan of Bag the Hun and think it is spot on when considering the importance of formations, wingmen and pilot skill.

    I didn’t really like CY6! by contrast as it bogged down in maths after a few turns when I played it a few times. The scenario and campaign books are brilliant though and I really like the way they are set up to give different options.

    I use 1/285th or 1/300th aircraft but, in retrospect would have used 1/600th scale to keep the cost and time painting to a manageable level.

    Having said that, I haven’t painted anything in ages or played a game for a few months…must get one going!

    I use a 4′ x 6′ blue hex mat from Hotz that I bought years ago and it’s still going strong. It’s location neutral so has been the Med, the Eastern Front, the Battle of Britain and North Africa etc. Very handy.

    I also play a lot of Table Air Combat and a WW1 multiplayer club set of rules called Knights of the Sky, along with the occasional dabble with Wings of Glory / War.

    I’ve always wanted to have a crack at the Wings AT War series but somehow have never got round to it!

     

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Jim Jackaman.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 10 months ago by Jim Jackaman.
    #69642
    madman
    Participant

    I liked the Fighting Wings series “tactical” module for this one – basically a pre-battle manoeuvre sequence that allowed you to try and set-up a bounce. I’ve never seen one that worked with the counters on the table in any of the tactical games though.

    What is this?

    Thank you.

    #69643
    madman
    Participant

    Still struggling to mount wing struts in 1:144 WWI models, but I’ll certainly be aiming to do multiplayer dogfights, drawing largely on my old days with Dawn Patrol (good game, except for using squares rather than hexes) and good old Red Baron on my father’s PC.

    If you have the wings mounted to the fuselage already and are talking the interplane struts (between the wings at the ends) here is an idea I have used on 1/300 WWI A/C. Drill (pin vise and tiny drill) through the bottom wing taking care to get the angles right so the drill just touches the top wing in the right spot after drilling through the bottom wing (some wiggling involved and practice and patience). Insert a piece of brass wire and glue to bottom of top wing and bottom of bottom wing. AFTER it is dry/cured snip off the excess brass and file/sand down.

    Stephen

    #69644
    madman
    Participant

    Waaaaay back in the day 1/300 (285) modern using Air Superiority. I made geomorphic game boards the same size (hex by hexes) as the individual AS map sheets but the hexes were about 2 1/2″ across flats.

    For an idea of stands for air craft see my post here. My design is the antennae design. The bases are 1/4″ thick steel to keep them from tipping over every time (a large fighter has a lot of leverage).

    https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1665443/was-wondering

    I didn’t get into JDs WWII games much before getting out of gaming 25 years ago. I also played a little Wings (Yaquinto) but didn’t get much time on the stands with it.

    As for the arguments about A/C facing their opponents start with Richtofen and go straight through to Shaw. If you have your nose on the enemy you are 90% of the way there. It hasn’t changed in 100+ years.

    #69684
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    I suppose it was DC Comics’ “Johnny Cloud, American Ace” that started my interest in WWII air combat, back in the early 1960s. Then came gluing together Revell and Airfix model kits, watching “12 O’Clock High” on TV, devouring Ballantine paperback editions of the aces’ memoirs, visiting the USAF Museum in Dayton. Then came playing paper-and-cardboard hex based games like Spitfire, Luftwaffe and Air Force. Once I took a hang-gliding lesson. It was like riding a bicycle in three dimensions. I was very bad at it (poor coordination and lack of kinesthetic awareness), I’m sure I’d kill myself, and maybe you, too, if I tried to fly in real life. But I can dream of flight.

    I came late to miniature air wargaming. This is a photo of my earliest  play set. I was inspired by the Corgi Fighting Machines pre-painted diecast toys that flooded toy stores around the turn of the century. They were so pretty, I had to possess them, and had to play with them:

     

    altoids1

     

    I thought I could adapt the boardgame Mustangs for miniatures play…I was right. I found the Air Pirates Yahoo group, fans who were doing just that, and took my guidance from them. It was all down hill from there. I started playing on old Battle Masters mats, laid out in a five inch hex grid. Today I have blue and tan mats, but I still use the old Battle Masters mats for my Battle of Britain games. Somehow they look to me like that green and pleasant land, or maybe The Shire.

    Corgi Fighting Machines is a box scale series. Most of the single-seat piston engine fighters scale out to between 1/120 and 1/130, the P-38 and the Mosquito are pretty close to 1/144. Coverage of subjects is spotty. I’ve expanded my collection with some Chinese diecasts (Dyna-flite, Fighting Wings, Maisto) that I’ve lightly converted and repainted, and bought twin-engine bombers in smaller scales from MPC (as in this photo) and other sources. It looks okay to me to step down a scale for the big bombers, and they fit into the hexes better.

    I loves me some pre-paints. Out of the box and onto the table. presto, gameo!

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #69685
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    *Then* I discovered 1/144 Japanese pre-painted gashopon models, and collected a boatload of them, as well as a ton of built plastic kits in that scale. These models aren’t really compatible with my 1/120 collection, so I have two distinct sets of model airplanes very close in size, but not quite close enough. Maybe that’s the reason I’ve stayed away from the Wings of Glory 1/200 pre-painted WWII airplane models, even though I loves me some pre-paints. 1/200 is just one scale too many.

    I popularized Mustangs/Air Pirates locally, spreading the virus to several friends. M/AP is my favorite rule set for the bigger airplane models, 1/144 and above, because you can play a good game in a fairly small number of hexes, and aren’t constantly flying off the edge of the board. Of course you can play with smaller models too. The main problem with the rules is lack of vendor support. Mustangs was orphaned when Hasbro bought out Avalon Hill. The Air Pirates miniatures adaptation was always a fan effort. You can’t buy a copy, you have to download the rules, print out and assemble the accessories yourself. That has its charms, but it limits the audience.

    If I’ve piqued your interest, Mustangs/Air Pirates rules and accessories are available for free download from the estimable Ian Croxall’s Warflag site:

    http://www.warflag.com/mustangs/

    Other files and a voluminous email correspondence are available on the Air Pirates Yahoo group.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #80013
    fathom
    Participant

    This is an old thread, so I have no idea if anyone will notice me resurrecting it, but I have to make a first post to this site, and this thread caught my eye.

    I play CY6 with a local group that I gave the tongue-in-cheek name “South Bay Aces” (we live and play in the south SF Bay area). I made us a mailing list and a web site (https://sites.google.com/site/southbayaces/) to help us organize and track our progress across CY6 campaigns.

    The group started with 1/300 planes (including my own), but a few members really got going collecting 1/144 planes, so by now we’ve all switched over. The planes are mostly of the pre-painted “gashopon” variety, but only because that’s what it’s easiest to acquire and get on the table –  there are also quite a few built models (Sweet, Revell, Arii, Minicraft, etc.) and a number of die-cast metal planes too.

    We play on a 3″ hex grid. The planes fit better in a 4″ hex grid, but we can almost get the entire 30×45 CY6 grid onto a 6’x12′ table with 3″ hexes, so we prefer that. Until recently, we were playing on one member’s Hotz mats, laying out 3 side-by-side to get the full grid. Last month I received a custom Deep Cut Studios mat that has the complete CY6 grid on it in 3″ hexes (plus a half hex border) with a gorgeous background (a color(ized?) aerial photo of WWI-like trenchlines), and we’ve played on that a couple times now. It’s nice to have the hex grid go the right way (most CY6 scenarios work best if the straight grain goes the long way), and I don’t miss having seams constantly drifting apart during play. In fact it was such a hit with the group that we placed a group order for 4 more with Deep Cut Studios.

    Because 1/144 bombers tend to overflow 3″ hexes pretty badly, we’ve started to prefer 1/200 twin-engine bombers, and we are still debating whether to play with 1/300 4-engine bombers. The 1/200 bombers actually look okay alongside the 1/144 fighters, but the 1/300 bombers will probably look rather shrunken.

    We perch the planes on magnetic telescoping rods so we can have actual 3D representation of altitude changes. One of our members spent quite a bit of time, money and effort collecting antennae and building stands for them, and since he has almost perfect attendance we tend to use his stands. A few of us have alternatives that will work (AIM stands, homemade stands, modified Corsec stands) but never use our own equipment for the group games.

    I’m normally opposed to building a collection for a single gaming genre in more than one scale, but gashopon planes are expensive, fragile, and hard to get in CY6-scale quantities, so I have settled on limiting the quantities to a single vic or schwarm for collaborative gaming (depending on other players to bring enough to flesh out the scenario) and branched into AIM 1/200 resin planes to build complete collections for my own GM-ing purposes. It turns out I really like painting the AIM planes, and they look really nice when completed. I am in the middle of a project to build a collection for playing CY6 battles set in the Solomons. If I finish that project and I’m still playing CY6, my next AIM project will be a “bombers over Europe” theme, with a few clouds of 1/300 B-17s and B-24s and sets of 12-16 each of the 1/200 AIM fighters that fought to kill or protect them.

    – Ix

     

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by fathom.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by fathom.

    My naval gaming site: http://admiralty.ixtraneous.net
    My land gaming site: http://stavka.ixtraneous.net
    South Bay Aces (CY6 group): https://sites.google.com/site/southbayaces/

    #80015
    fathom
    Participant

    I’d be curious to hear what patterns (if any) others follow when building a collection of model planes.

    I tend to prefer to collect fighters in identically painted sets of 3 (for planes that flew in vics) or 4 (planes that flew in schwarm/finger four). I like each plane to have something unique (serial numbers at least, nose art if possible), but I also like each player’s group of planes to look a bit different from each other player’s group. This assists move plotting and other game activities during play in CY6.

    The 1/144 Gashopon planes often come in strikingly different paint patterns, so it can be pretty easy to collect them in sets. For instance, I have 3 sets of Ki-61 Tonys: olive green, forest green, and silver. OTOH, it can be difficult to get unique serial numbers on a full set of 3-4. The manufacturers tend to provide insignia for one plane and serial numbers/nose art for 1-2 options, so I am ever seeking sources of more letters and numbers to uniquify F-Toys and Bandai models.

    My first two sets of AIM fighters were Wildcats and A6M2 Zeroes, so they all got painted in the standard 1942 colors (blue-gray top/gray bottom on the Wildcats, gray-green overall on the Zeroes). The Zeroes will get striped in sets of 3 as different carrier groups to help identify each player’s personal flight; with the Wildcats I’ll have to get more creative (maybe red/white rudder stripes, black/white serial numbers, etc.). When I get to painting Pacific War planes that flew in ’43 and ’44, I can branch into the tricolor and overall dark blue schemes to help make player-groupings look unique.

    For bombers, so far I don’t really care if the entire group of 9-12 looks identical. In CY6 they are pretty much non-player automata anyway, targets to shoot down or protect, so there hasn’t yet been a real need to assist players in identifying them by group.

    – Ix

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by fathom.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by fathom.

    My naval gaming site: http://admiralty.ixtraneous.net
    My land gaming site: http://stavka.ixtraneous.net
    South Bay Aces (CY6 group): https://sites.google.com/site/southbayaces/

    #81816
    Whirlwind
    Participant

    Fathom, I’m much lazier, so I tend to paint my 1/600 aircraft in a single simple scheme.

    That said, I have a vague plan to spruce up a lot of my collection in a few years time and I plan to follow your plan pretty much exactly, except I will probably do the same for the bombers (I like doing air-to-ground, and even better, air-to-ship missions too).

     

    https://hereticalgaming.blogspot.co.uk/

    #82020
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    Pleased to meet you fathom. I’m glad you revived this thread. It was fun to review the old posts. I was sorry that I killed the thread off back in August. I have more to write about now.

    I’ve lately achieved liftoff with the Check Your Six! rules. I bought a copy years ago and tried to run a couple of games for my cronies, but couldn’t quite figure the rules out on my own. Since then several GMs have kindly steered me through a number of CY6! games at conventions. Thanks to their patient coaching I finally comprehended enough to run some games on my own starting this fall. I posted an AAR on one recent game when it was fresh and exciting:

    Check Your Six Game: Hankow Jingbao

    and posted some models I completed the other week on the Painting Desk thread:

    What's on your painting desk/table/corner

    I’m proud of them, because most of my models were painted by others, but I paint as much as I can, and I’m gaining traction since I fully retired in 2016.

    You can see my CY6! set-up in the two posts. I fly ‘6mm’ models on the proprietary Noble Enterprises CY6! flight stands. I mount planes on stands with rare earth magnets glued to both. I write ‘6mm’ because I’m very loose on scale. I have models as small as 1/350 and as big as 1/260 in my collection, although most are 1/285-300. I play on an old Blue Skies brand hex mat, sky blue with ‘clouds’ printed on, 40mm hexes, about 6 feet by 4 feet. This gives me a playing area 47 hexes long X 37 hexes wide with the straight line of hexes running the length of the mat, more than I need for a standard CY6! scenario map. I have a similar mat in desert tan, but I use that mostly for land gaming. The 40mm hexes fit my NE stands very well and contain single engine and smaller twin-engine aircraft. The bigger multi-engine planes stick out a bit.

    I’ve considered the same question you’re facing: How to play CY6! with 1/144 models? My solution is to play CY6! using 6mm models and 40mm hexes, so that a game will fit on a regular table. I use different rules, Mustangs/Air Pirates, with my 1/144 collection and play on 5 inch hexes. M/AP works better with the bigger models, in my opinion, because you don’t need as many hexes for a good game. An 8 foot X 6 foot mat laid out in 5 inch hexes gives me a playing area 18 hexes long X 15 hexes wide, with the straight line of hexes running the length of the mat. I can fit two or three single engine models into a hex, but the bigger multi-engine planes stick out a lot, and like you, I usually go ‘down a scale’ for the bigger planes.

    I’ve never played Starfleet Battles, but maybe you have. I’ve heard the M/AP movement system compared to Starfleet Battles. The game is played in 8 game turns, which is usually more than is needed for resolution. Each game turn is divided into 5 movement impulses and an interphase. Models move only one hex per impulse. Models move up to 5 impulses per turn, depending on their speed: a plane at speed 1 moves only one impulse, one at speed 2 moves on two impulses, and so on. 1 point of speed is about 100 mph in the standard version of the rules – there’s an early-war variant to acomodate slower airplanes. We have no problem fitting a game on my mat, as long as I focus the scenario on a bomber formation, so as to keep the fighters from scattering at random.

    Of course, there was this one guy who deliberately flew his two fighters in opposite directions, so as to break the game, for his own amusement. I no longer play airwar games with that guy.

    Mustangs/Air Pirate is not as detailed a rule set as CY6!, it uses a simpler model of flight physics, but it emphasizes some different points than CY6! and my pals and I have fun playing it. Not telling you how to play with your toys, just bragging about what I do.

    Your post makes me think about getting a mat with 3 inch hexes and using it to play CY6! games with single-engine 1/144 models. I can see that multi-engine models just won’t fit the hexes, even if I use 1/200 models.

    The principle I follow when I go ‘down a scale’ is that the big bomber still has to be visually larger than the little fighter. A 1/144 model of a WWII single engine fighter has a wingspan of 3 or 4 inches. A 1/144 B-17 has a wingspan of about 8 inches. In 1/200 scale, the B-17’s wingspan is about 6 inches, still visibly bigger than the fighter. A 1/300 model of a B-17 has a 4 inch wingspan – it’s the same size as the fighter model. That doesn’t look right to me.

    Playing analog wargames with three dimensional models is an engineering problem. There are no perfect solutions to engineering problems, only compromises. These are the compromises I make.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by zippyfusenet.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

    #82061
    fathom
    Participant

    The principle I follow when I go ‘down a scale’ is that the big bomber still has to be visually larger than the little fighter.

    I totally agree. This is another reason I like 1/200 AIM planes better than gashopon 1/144 planes – I can use 1/300 (and 1/285) “big” bombers and they still look okay beside the fighters. I think 1/300 B-24s and B-17s look really funny next to 1/144 Thunderbolts and Lightnings.

    – Ix

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by fathom.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by fathom.

    My naval gaming site: http://admiralty.ixtraneous.net
    My land gaming site: http://stavka.ixtraneous.net
    South Bay Aces (CY6 group): https://sites.google.com/site/southbayaces/

    #82071
    NKL Aerotom
    Participant

    6′ x 4′ mat from Deep Cut Studio, 1/600 aircraft from Tumbling dice and the 3 systems I wrote for Air combat – Dogfight! (WW1), Lacquered Coffins (WW2) and Missile Threat (Modern)

    #82076
    zippyfusenet
    Participant

    fathom, I take your point that 1/200 models offer another solution to the problem of fitting a CY6! game on a table. And you can get pre-painted 1/200 WWII models from the Wings of Glory folks. I’m a sucker for pre-paints. But like I said back in August, I passed on 1/200 scale because it was just one scale too many for me. I’ll enjoy seeing pix of your games.

    Aerotom, I’ve enjoyed your game reports. Those missile markers look particularly fine. I started a 1/700 collection some years back, but sold it off again. Yeah, it was one scale too many.

    Sometimes I wish I could have all the toys.

    You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

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