25/01/2018 at 02:47 #82649Admin Test AccountParticipant
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– Mike.25/01/2018 at 05:25 #82651Don GlewweParticipant
Am I totally out to lunch with my memories?
Yeah…sure. Memories?…what’re those?
Me too, but since I’m in Minnesota* -and that counts as Canada for most- I’m not really adding much to your side.
25/01/2018 at 05:44 #82653Deleted UserMember
- did some GenCon in the Horticulture Hall, though, so…
D4 are the oldest dice. Prehistoric ones made from ankle bones:
As for the various polyhedrals, I thought Gary Gygax of D&D fame “invented” them in the late 70s?
donald25/01/2018 at 07:03 #82655
I still have my dice from White Box D&D, as well as a pair of “percentile dice” purchased in the mid 1970s. I am pretty sure the latter were D20s marked up 0-9 while the former was a proper ten sided D10. I’ll have to dig them out and check.
"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke25/01/2018 at 07:34 #82657Not Connard SageParticipant
Don Featherstone’s ‘Skirmish Wargaming’, published in the mid/late 70s, used 2D10 (icosohedrons numbered 2x o-9) for percentile throws.
Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.25/01/2018 at 09:55 #82664
Definitely available by about 1975 in the UK, possibly a bit earlier.25/01/2018 at 11:45 #82676Phil DutréParticipant
For this sort of question, “Playing at the World” is one of the best sources to provide answers.
and this thread on BGG:
(also has links to US Patent on a D10, 1983 – although it seems a patent was also granted much earlier in 1904 https://www.google.com/patents/US809293)25/01/2018 at 17:38 #82704hammurabi70Participant25/01/2018 at 19:55 #82715
I dug out my original ‘percentage dice’from the early. They are 20 sided but marked up as 0-9 twice, so function as D10s. My ratty old White Box D&D set does indeed include a proper ten sided D10 (as well as the awful, unrollable D4. We used to use a D8 and halve it).
"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke25/01/2018 at 21:38 #82726John D SaltParticipant
My recollection matches Tim’s.
I got my first icosahedral dice (sold as “percentage dice”, or, worse, “percentile dice” and numbered 0..9 twice) shortly after getting my copy of “StarForce Alpha Centauri” (surely the only wargame to have provided the name for a pop group) which was first published in 1974 — the game used decimal randomizer chits, as non-cubic dice were rare birds at the time. Some of my own games designed in the 1970s used base 10 randomisation, but employed cards rather than dice, simply because the dice were not readily available. I also remember working out a table to convert 2d6 to percentages, which involved making the middle 6 numbers slightly more likely than the two on each end. Anyone who reckons d10s were “regularly used” in the 1970s either means icosahedral “percentage dice”, or is crazy on acid. I started playing D&D in 1976, which I think put us pretty much on the cutting edge in the UK, and the dice used were exactly those Tim describes from 1978, and resin casts, some of dubious symmetry, were all that was available.
Wargame Developments, that august body to which I may prevously have had occasion to animadvert, was founded in 1980, and its house organ became known under the title it still bears, “The Nugget”. “Nugget” was the name given to the icosahedral die, regarded in 1980 as a token of radical innovation. Nobody calls them that any more, of course, and I don’t recall that many people ever did, but I think we can be fairly sure that the true d10 was too new-fangled even for the hippy progressives of WD to have heard of it in 1980.
The first time I saw a d10 was in a Victory Games product of some kind, and since Victory games was founded in 1982 I think that puts a reasonable early bound on the widespread use of such things.
All the best,
John.26/01/2018 at 01:01 #82732EtrangerParticipant
My experiences from the same era would be the same. I bought what was an ‘official’ set of D &D dice around 1977, 5 in the set 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1 d12 & 1d20. No 10 siders. Percentages were rolled with 2d20, one for 10’s, the other for single digits. The d10 seems to have turned up in the 80’s & 90’s. The Cyberpunk RPG from around then used (& came with IIRC) the d10.26/01/2018 at 08:41 #82752willzParticipant
For me D4, D6, D8, D10, D20, or whatever they never fall on what numbers I need or want.26/01/2018 at 10:58 #82755
Tim : Not 10-sided die but a D10 with 2 sets of 0-9. I painted one set in red so I could have a D20.
To me a D10 is a die that randomises 10 different outcomes – saying that a 20 sided die marked 0-9 is a D20 is silly.
Now that I look at rule sets I’d agree that these must have been available earlier because I have a set dated 1971 that uses percentages for success.26/01/2018 at 17:02 #82786John D SaltParticipant
Alright, who added the “crazy on acid” tag? LOL 😀
Is there an emoji for “whistling insouciantly”? I need to know, errrm, for a friend.
All the best,
John.26/01/2018 at 19:04 #82795
Tim it is silly because it creates ambiguity.
If I said that you need to throw 9 on a D20 then your definition would make it unclear whether I had a 10% or a 5% chance of achieving that as you use the same name for a die with 10 different outcomes twice as for one with 20 different outcomes.
Tony26/01/2018 at 20:19 #82808Who Asked This JokerParticipant
There were 20 sided D10s. Those actually came first. It was suggested that you roll a D10 and a D6 together. a 4+ on the D6 indicated that you add 10 to the result of a D20. That was in the mid 70s. The D20 came soon after in the late 70s. I remember using those in highschool. c1979-1983. The actual D10s with only 10 sides came out sometime in the mid 80s…best guess. I remember seeing them for the first time in college. Probably 1984 or 85.
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
--Abraham Lincoln26/01/2018 at 20:44 #82812
Tim : You seem to have forgotten the possibility that D20 may refer to a die that has 20 different sides (in reality that is ALL it should refer to) – did you not know that those are in common use ? Using the term D20 to refer to a die with 2o sides but only 10 different ones is obviously going to cause ambiguity so it should be referred to as a D10 to avoid any ambiguity.27/01/2018 at 01:38 #82827EtrangerParticipant
Tim : You seem to have forgotten the possibility that D20 may refer to a die that has 20 different sides (in reality that is ALL it should refer to) – did you not know that those are in common use ? Using the term D20 to refer to a die with 2o sides but only 10 different ones is obviously going to cause ambiguity so it should be referred to as a D10 to avoid any ambiguity.
But they are pretty much already universally known as d20! So now it becomes a 10 sided d10 or a 20 sided d10. That just adds to the confusion…27/01/2018 at 12:15 #82841irishserbParticipant
For whatever it is worth, my first game with any sort percentage dice came in 1979 in the form of a 20 sided die numbered 0-9 twice. I don’t remember if that game called it such, but by 1980 I had a game using the same dice, and calling it a 2D10.
My first proper 10 sided D10 came in 1981 with the Basic D&D game. This was the conventionally shaped d10, but was smaller than what has become the typical size D10, an opaque green, and made of a grainy cheap plastic material that began to break down after about a year and a half.
Prior to 1979, all the games that I encountered used conventional D6 dice.28/01/2018 at 08:15 #82877
I must confess, that if someone says D20s, I instantly think of a dice numbered 0 to 19 as the number of sides on a dice bears little relation to the numbers (average dice, CnC dice, scatter dice etc). In fact, I think my old polyhedral dice are set up to be used as both D10 and D20. Numbered 0-9 but with a little dot next to half of the digits, so that one of the 1s can be read as 11 etc.
My speed and acid raddled brain may be misremembering of course:)
"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke28/01/2018 at 18:10 #82942Ivan SorensenParticipant
I could have sworn that the Runequest 2nd edition rulebook referenced “proper” D10’s to make percentile rolls, but I don’t have my copy any longer.
It’d have been a 79 release or thereabouts.
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