Home Forums General General When Did d10s Turn Up?

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  • #82649
    Avatar photoAdmin Test Account
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    The author of this topic requested their account be deleted.

    This topic has been kept by attributing the original post to an admin account, and replacing the initial wording by the now deleted user with this.
    To have deleted the topic in its entirety would also have deleted the replies of others, and it is not fair that their postings be effected.

    – Mike.

    #82651
    Avatar photoDon Glewwe
    Participant

    Am I totally out to lunch with my memories?

    Yeah…sure.   Memories?…what’re those?  

    Me too, but since I’m in Minnesota* -and that counts as Canada for most- I’m not really adding much to your side. 

     

    • did some GenCon in the Horticulture Hall, though, so…
    #82653
    Avatar photoDeleted User
    Member

    D4 are the oldest dice. Prehistoric ones made from ankle bones:

     

    As for the various polyhedrals, I thought Gary Gygax of D&D fame “invented” them in the late 70s?

     

    donald

    #82655
    Avatar photoMartinR
    Participant

    I still have my dice from White Box D&D, as well as a pair of “percentile dice” purchased in the mid 1970s. I am pretty sure the latter were D20s marked up 0-9 while the former was a proper ten sided D10. I’ll have to dig them out and check.

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #82657
    Avatar photoNot Connard Sage
    Participant

    Don Featherstone’s ‘Skirmish Wargaming’, published in the mid/late 70s, used 2D10 (icosohedrons numbered 2x o-9) for percentile throws.

     

     

    Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

    #82664
    Avatar photoTony Hughes
    Participant

    Definitely available by about 1975 in the UK, possibly a bit earlier.

     

     

    #82676
    Avatar photoPhil Dutré
    Participant

    For this sort of question, “Playing at the World” is one of the best sources to provide answers.

    See:

    http://playingattheworld.blogspot.be/2013/02/how-gaming-got-its-dice.html

    http://playingattheworld.blogspot.be/2013/08/the-origins-of-dice-notation.html

    and this thread on BGG:

    https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/82923/when-was-d10-invented

    (also has links to US Patent on a D10, 1983 – although it seems a patent was also granted much earlier in 1904 https://www.google.com/patents/US809293)

     

    #82704
    Avatar photohammurabi70
    Participant

    I was using percentile dice, so D10s, in 1972 for rules played by the Naval Wargames Society so they go back to at least to the 1960s. I still have those dice.

    www.olivercromwell.org; www.battlefieldstrust.com
    6mm wargames group: [email protected]; 2mm wargames group: [email protected]

    #82715
    Avatar photoMartinR
    Participant

    I dug out my original ‘percentage dice’from the early. They are 20 sided but marked up as 0-9 twice, so function as D10s. My ratty old White Box D&D set does indeed include a proper ten sided D10 (as well as the awful, unrollable D4. We used to use a D8 and halve it).

     

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #82726
    Avatar photoJohn D Salt
    Participant

    My recollection matches Tim’s.

    I got my first icosahedral dice (sold as “percentage dice”, or, worse, “percentile dice” and numbered 0..9 twice) shortly after getting my copy of “StarForce Alpha Centauri” (surely the only wargame to have provided the name for a pop group) which was first published in 1974 — the game used decimal randomizer chits, as non-cubic dice were rare birds at the time. Some of my own games designed in the 1970s used base 10 randomisation, but employed cards rather than dice, simply because the dice were not readily available. I also remember working out a table to convert 2d6 to percentages, which involved making the middle 6 numbers slightly more likely than the two on each end. Anyone who reckons d10s were “regularly used” in the 1970s either means icosahedral “percentage dice”, or is crazy on acid. I started playing D&D in 1976, which I think put us pretty much on the cutting edge in the UK, and the dice used were exactly those Tim describes from 1978, and resin casts, some of dubious symmetry, were all that was available.

    Wargame Developments, that august body to which I may prevously have had occasion to animadvert, was founded in 1980, and its house organ became known under the title it still bears, “The Nugget”. “Nugget” was the name given to the icosahedral die, regarded in 1980 as a token of radical innovation. Nobody calls them that any more, of course, and I don’t recall that many people ever did, but I think we can be fairly sure that the true d10 was too new-fangled even for the hippy progressives of WD to have heard of it in 1980.

    The first time I saw a d10 was in a Victory Games product of some kind, and since Victory games was founded in 1982 I think that puts a reasonable early bound on the widespread use of such things.

    All the best,

    John.

    #82732
    Avatar photoEtranger
    Participant

    My experiences from the same era would be the same. I bought what was an ‘official’ set of D &D dice around 1977, 5 in the set 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1 d12 & 1d20. No 10 siders. Percentages were rolled with 2d20, one for 10’s, the other for single digits. The d10 seems to have turned up in the 80’s & 90’s. The Cyberpunk RPG from around then used  (& came with IIRC) the d10.

    #82752
    Avatar photowillz
    Participant

    For me D4, D6, D8, D10, D20, or whatever they never fall on what numbers I need or want.

    #82755
    Avatar photoTony Hughes
    Participant

    Tim : Not 10-sided die but a D10 with 2 sets of 0-9.  I painted one set in red so I could have a D20.

    To me a D10 is a die that randomises 10 different outcomes – saying that a 20 sided die marked 0-9 is a D20 is silly.

    Now that I look at rule sets I’d agree that these must have been available earlier because I have a set dated 1971 that uses percentages for success.

     

     

    #82786
    Avatar photoJohn D Salt
    Participant

    Alright, who added the “crazy on acid” tag? LOL 😀

    Is there an emoji for “whistling insouciantly”? I need to know, errrm, for a friend.

    All the best,

    John.

    #82795
    Avatar photoTony Hughes
    Participant

    Tim it is silly because it creates ambiguity.

    If I said that you need to throw 9 on a D20 then your definition would make it unclear whether I had a 10% or a 5% chance of achieving that as you use the same name for a die with 10 different outcomes twice as for one with 20 different outcomes.

    Tony

     

    #82808

    There were 20 sided D10s.  Those actually came first.  It was suggested that you roll a D10 and a D6 together.  a 4+ on the D6 indicated that you add 10 to the result of a D20.  That was in the mid 70s.  The D20 came soon after in the late 70s.  I remember using those in highschool.  c1979-1983.  The actual D10s with only 10 sides came out sometime in the mid 80s…best guess.  I remember seeing them for the first time in college.  Probably 1984 or 85.

    John

    "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

    --Abraham Lincoln

    #82812
    Avatar photoTony Hughes
    Participant

    Tim : You seem to have forgotten the possibility that D20 may refer to a die that has 20 different sides (in reality that is ALL it should refer to) – did you not know that those are in common use ? Using the term D20 to refer to a die with 2o sides but only 10 different ones is obviously going to cause ambiguity so it should be referred to as a D10 to avoid any ambiguity.

     

     

    #82827
    Avatar photoEtranger
    Participant

    Tim : You seem to have forgotten the possibility that D20 may refer to a die that has 20 different sides (in reality that is ALL it should refer to) – did you not know that those are in common use ? Using the term D20 to refer to a die with 2o sides but only 10 different ones is obviously going to cause ambiguity so it should be referred to as a D10 to avoid any ambiguity.

    But they are pretty much already universally known as d20! So now it becomes a 10 sided d10 or a 20 sided d10. That just adds to the confusion…

    #82841
    Avatar photoirishserb
    Participant

    For whatever it is worth, my first game with any sort percentage dice came in 1979 in the form of a 20 sided die numbered 0-9 twice.  I don’t remember if that game called it such, but by 1980 I had a game using the same dice, and calling it a 2D10.

    My first proper 10 sided D10 came in 1981 with the Basic D&D game. This was the conventionally shaped d10, but was smaller than what has become the typical size D10, an opaque green, and made of a grainy cheap plastic material that began to break down after about a year and a half.

    Prior to 1979, all the games that I encountered used conventional D6 dice.

    #82877
    Avatar photoMartinR
    Participant

    I must confess, that if someone says D20s, I instantly think of a dice numbered 0 to 19 as the number of sides on a dice bears little relation to the numbers (average dice, CnC dice, scatter dice etc). In fact, I think my old polyhedral dice are set up to be used as both D10 and D20. Numbered 0-9 but with a little dot next to half of the digits, so that one of the 1s can be read as 11 etc.

    My speed and acid raddled brain may be misremembering of course:)

    "Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

    #82942
    Avatar photoIvan Sorensen
    Participant

    I could have sworn that the Runequest 2nd edition rulebook referenced “proper” D10’s to make percentile rolls, but I don’t have my copy any longer.

    Anyone?

    It’d have been a 79 release or thereabouts.

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