Home Forums Medieval Where to find Uchelwr?

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  • #78265
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Hello everyone,

    Where to find in 25 mm/30 mm figurines representing Uchelwr of the eleventh, twelfth or thirteenth century?

    Thank you

    Pascal

    #78266
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Surely they are like any other contemporary minor lord in the British Isles? Mail shirt, helmet, sword, maybe a small horse for transport rather than fighting?

     

     

     

     

    "I'm not signing that"

    #78267
    Cerdic
    Participant

    I would just use the same figures that you would for any other 11th, 12th, or 13th Century troops. Maybe a bit less armour than average?

     

     

    #78284
    Paskal
    Spectator

    I would like a figurine that reproduces the illutration in “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300” by Ian Heath …

    #78285
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Pretty much what they said above – although the Welsh did put together some cavalry later on rather than just being mounted infantry.

    I’d be very careful of 19th century Victorian Romantic interpretations of Uchelwr, just as I would be of Victorian Romantic interpretations of Scots Highlanders.

    Think relatively poor nobility, without the feudal overtones – good luck working out Welsh early medieval societal relationships, steer clear of anyone with an agenda – that means everyone – think Irish history with bitter internecine language overtones! (West/North/Central/South West Welsh is better than your Welsh!)

    #78306
    Paskal
    Spectator

    No romantic interpretations of the Uchelwr in it, only the uniformological descriptions of visual witnesses, so first sources in this case …
    These visual witnesses are William le Breton and Giraldus who describe the Welsh auxiliaries of Edward I in 1297 …

    Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, Prince of Gwynedd 1194-1240 was equipped as the drawn Ian Heath in his work “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300”, except that he substituted the traditional celtic round shield by a longer conventional shield …

    It seems likelythat in course of the 13th century the uchelwyr would have been influenced by the style of arms and armour iuse amongst the contingents of the marcher lords and that an even more “angliced” harness wouls have resulted decades aprés decades in the 13th century …

    So what I’m looking for is a figurine that reproduces the illustration page 95 in the book “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300” by Ian Heath …

    Because if the uchelwyr look like brothers to English knights, they no longer have interests …

    It’s still incredible that not a sculptor is reproduced this illustration in figurine !

    #78313
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    So what I’m looking for is a figurine that reproduces the illustration page 95 in the book “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300” by Ian Heath …

    I only have the first edition, can’t help there.

    "I'm not signing that"

    #78316
    Paskal
    Spectator

    In the edition of May 1989, This is page 95 illustration N ° 48 …

    And the two Lithuanian tribesman (illustrations 110 & 111) are page N ° 118 and the three Polish knights (illustrations 112, 113 & 114) are pages N ° 118 & 119 …

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Paskal.
    #78336
    James Manto
    Participant

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Welsh are a rough army to play.</p>
    <p style=”text-align: left;”>Raiding and skirmishimg don’t fit into the WRG ancients tournaments that drove so many figure lines for so long (and still influence lines today).</p>
    <p style=”text-align: left;”>It’s only new comers like Saga, and Lion Rampant that give you scope to field Welsh.</p>

    #78337
    James Manto
    Participant

    And why does my post feature the html code?

    #78341
    Paskal
    Spectator

    I play a very old French rule that allows what is allowed on the historical level ,but where to find in 25 mm/30 mm figurines representing Uchelwr of the eleventh, twelfth or thirteenth century ?

     

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Paskal.
    #78344
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Post a pic of what you’re looking for. Otherwise, see earlier posts. Here and at TMP.

    "I'm not signing that"

    #78345
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Easy I want a figurine and his horse that reproduces the illustration No. 48 of the  page 95 of the edition of May 1989 of the book “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300” by Ian Heath …

    #78349
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    I suspect the answer is; there aren’t any.

    Another answer – and possibly more helpful; would be – why so concerned that it must be an exact reproduction of that drawing by Heath? No disrespect to him or to you, but other interpretations are possible, and you could easily use other dark age/early medieval/medieval figures.

    If it must be that figure I guess you will have to start sculpting, pester a figure company or pay a sculptor to make one for you

    #78351
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    The pic I posted earlier is a re-enactor tagged as a Uchelwr in this album.

    https://myspace.com/cwmwdial/mixes/classic-authentic-photos-482403/photo/215076599

    I expect he did his research.

    "I'm not signing that"

    #78354
    General Slade
    Participant

    You can see Ian Heath’s illustration here: Welsh Uchelwyr .

    It is based on this seal: Great Seal of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth

    So I think it is fair to say a little bit of artistic interpretation was involved.

    Perry’s Crusaders look pretty close to me: Perry: Knights, attacking with sword

     

     

     

    #78362
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Guy, someone told me that the 28 mm reference  DAC – 01 of Old glory looks like it, I’ll check…

    #78363
    Paskal
    Spectator

    General Slade, I do not think there was an artistic interpretation was involved. It’s not about knights and it’s about men who still had at this time, guarded, all their celticity …

    If I can find something that looks, I will transform it!

    But what ?

    No ideas ?

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Paskal.
    #78372
    General Slade
    Participant

    I don’t think there is anything particularly ‘celtic’ about the seal from which Ian Heath’s illustration is taken.  The motif of an armed horseman is a standard image on seals used by nobility throughout western Europe at the time.

    #78373
    OB
    Participant

    “it’s about men who still had at this time, guarded, all their celticity …”

    You will understand that by virtue of their very existence they achieved that. They were the first line of defence of their legal and social system and all aspects of their culture which in turn provided them with their status as noble warriors.

    Most of their kit was imported it didn’t change who they were or what they represented.

    The advice above is sound enough if you want to represent them on the table top.

    OB
    http://withob.blogspot.co.uk/

    #78378
    Paskal
    Spectator

    General Slade, what? the motive of an armed horseman is a standard image on seals used by nobility Yes but not in such a particular outfit … The Welsh of the eleventh and twelfth and even after, do not look too much like their opponents … They had to keep all their celticity!

    #78379
    Paskal
    Spectator

    OB, of which advice above do you talk about?

    #78399
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Pascal, I’m all in favour of recognising Celtic individuality, but I have to confess I don’t see a great deal of difference between standard representations of Kings of the period and Llywelyn’s Princely seal – in fact it looks as if the Welsh princes were deliberately copying a common European motif of power.

    This:British Museum paper on Medieval Seals is interesting on the images of authority in medieval seals.

    These English seals (below) show a stylised representation of the Equestrian seal common among European royalty of around that period.

    Celtic Uchelwyr would probably be rough and ready approximations of western European (lesser) nobility in general, based on post Norman originals.
    john

    Richard I

    Henry II

     

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Guy Farrish.
    #78436
    Paskal
    Spectator

    It is true that there is not much difference between the standard representations of the Kings of the time and the princely seal of Llywelyn – and in fact it seems that little by little, the Welsh princes deliberately copy a common European motive of power, but it is only about princes, the high nobility and it was only and especially from the thirteenth century and very, very slowly …

    Because for the nobles (Uchelwyr) who form the “Teulu” – a band of mounted retainers – but not knights like their opponents and for the rest and that until the reign of Edward I, they come straight from the “Dark Ages “, they kept their deset look …

    It would be necessary to be blind not to notice it, the armies Anglo-Norman then English have appearances ultra-modern compared to the Welsh armies and that on all the plans, even their tactical use of the bow is obsolete …

    But to return to my original question, should we know which manufactures offer 25 / 30mm welsh figures for the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries to see if there are Uchelwyr (or Uchelwr?) figures and if there are none , it is not normal…

    #78446
    Rhoderic
    Participant

    I’m confused by this thread, and I suspect I’m not alone in that.

    Paskal, is the Ian Heath illustration General Slade linked to not the same as the illustration you’re referring to?

    If it is the same, what’s distinctly Celtic about it, aside from (maybe) the bare lower legs? And what makes the Perry Crusaders suggested by General Slade unserviceable?

    If the illustration is not the same, or if it is the same but it’s not the portrayal of an uchelwr being requested after all, then it would probably help this thread along if you were to provide an image or several of the sought-for portrayal. It doesn’t have to be the illustration that you originally referred to, but it has to be something. A description in words, if nothing else.

    Right now, there seems to be a weird logical disconnect in this thread, making the discussion loop back on itself many times over around some kind of misunderstanding.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Rhoderic.
    #78448
    Cerdic
    Participant

    Paskal, I believe you may be over-thinking this a little!

    Although the social organisation of the Welsh may have been different to the English, not having ‘Knights’ for example, the kit that they used was probably very similar. Just a bit less of it and a bit lower quality on average.

     

    #78450
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Cerdic, It is perhaps because the social organization, culture and ethnicity of the Welsh may have been different to the English, that their appearance was very different …

     

    Rhoderic it’s easy to understand …, I simply want to have a 25/30 mm figurine and his horse that reproduce the illustration No. 48 of the page 95 of the edition of May 1989 of the book “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300 “By Ian Heath … Not something like it …

    You understand now ?

    #78454
    General Slade
    Participant

    Paskal, is this the image you are referring to?

    #78456
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Yes, yes and yes, you’re not a general for nothing !

    #78459
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    I refer to my suggestion above – start sculpting, start talking to a sculptor or talk to a figure company.

    And you then will have a figure of illustration No.48 of Heath’s book (but not a precise and exact copy of what Uchelwyr looked like – as frankly, no-on knows to that degree of precision).

    The descriptions of Welsh and Irish and Scots in various campaigns and hosts that tend to be remembered are those that focus on the poor foot soldiers because of their difference. The ones who blended in and the higher class warriors don’t get mentioned – not because Irish, Welsh and Scottish upper class warriors weren’t there, but because they were so like their Anglo/Norman counterparts they didn’t merit a mention in the chroniclers eye or because their descriptions slide past as unexceptional to historians and writers looking for the unusual to surprise their audiences.

    With regard to retention of their ‘Celtic’ nature, this is an enticing romantic aim, helped not least by people like Gerald and his division of the country into ‘native Wales’ and ‘Marchia Wallia’. Yes there was English settlement in walled towns allied to castle invasion and taxation patterns, particularly in lowland Wales reflect southern English models, but the initial division between the two cultural developments rapidly melded and the Wales of the mid 14th century is very different from that of pre conquest Wales, right across Wales and not just in the walled towns which had broken their bounds mixed with the Welsh hinterland and produced a very different economic and cultural model from both its parent roots.

    So Welsh nobility (probably mostly Anglo-Welsh after the conquest of Edward I, but considerably so even prior to that calamity) would have increasingly mirrored their western European counterparts in dress and aspiration. Barelegged Dark Age warriors would have been as confusing to most Welsh medieval hosts as to their English and French chroniclers.

    • This reply was modified 4 years, 1 month ago by Guy Farrish.
    #78463
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    To get bare legs from the (lack of) detail on that seal is rather a stretch. Methinks the illustrator was using a bit of artistic licence.

    Wales is wet and cold a lot of the year (I know, I’ve been 😉 ), if you were wealthy enough to afford woollen hose you’d damn well wear woollen hose. Comfort trumps ‘celticity’.

    Further, a minor lord who could run to fighting on horseback is probably going to be investing in mail chausses if he has the funds. Nothing worse than having a peasant with a farm tool hacking off a leg…

     

    "I'm not signing that"

    #78465
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Start sculpting, start talking to a sculptor or talk to a figure company.

    Yes…
    In the past I have sculpted hundreds of figurine masters, but I do not have the time, I do not understand that the sculptors have made the Welsh infantry (certainly based on Ian Heath’s WRG books) and not the cavalry?

    Why ? It’s incomprehensible to me !

    Note that William Le Breton (c. 1165 –  1225) and Giraldus (1146 – 1223) describe visually quite at the early of the 13th century the Uchelwyr serving at war exactly as in the illustration based on the seal of 1214 of Llewelyn ap Iorwerth posted by General Slade…

    #78466
    Rhoderic
    Participant

    So have we narrowed down the distinct Celticness of that Ian Heath illustration to the bare legs? Or is there something else I’m missing?

    The bare legs, if desirable, ought to be very easy to convert from an Anglo-Norman or similar figure wearing tight hose. Worst case scenario, a bit of filing, no resculpting with putty necessary. And surely there are at least some 25-30mm Anglo-Norman knights wearing long-sleeved hauberks?

    Again, that’s unless there are other critical details besides the bare legs that I’m missing entirely, but if so, I need them explained to me. I’m that thick.

    #78469
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Let’s examine both the illustration, and Giraldus’ description. Both of which Pascal sets such great store by.

    “quote from the text accompanying the illustration in Heath’s book”

    Though William le Breton and Giraldus himself also state that Welsh soldiers were unarmoured the latter nevertheless reports that some, clearly the upper-classes, wore light armour, which he describes as comprising helmet, short mail corselet, circular shield (also carried by infantry spearmen and described in various sources as being coloured white, gold, silver or blue) and – very occasionally – mail hosen. [end quote]

     

    The shield in the illustration’s wrong, according to Giraldus. It’s a flat topped kite shield, not a round one.

    The figure is wearing a knee length mail hauberk, not a ‘short mail corselet’.

    Giraldus also states that they wore mail hosen ‘very occasionally’. One wonders how large his sample group was.

    Giraldus further claims that Uchelwyr wore a ‘helmet’. Not a ‘nasal helm’ such as the figure is wearing.

    We see that Giraldus’ description contradicts the illustration at several points. So which is correct? The figure? The text? Neither?

    "I'm not signing that"

    #78473
    Paskal
    Spectator

    @Not Connard Sage

    That does not change the fact that the figurine designed by Ian Heath must exist and must be found !

    #78476
    Paskal
    Spectator

    @Rhoderic:

    You have ideas, but it would be more fun to find the figurine!

    Because in my opinion it exists necessarily, no?

    #78477
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Why the bloody hell MUST it exist?

    Ian Heath didn’t design it. He, or his illustrator drew it. For a book. It is an artist’s impression of what a Uchelwyr might have looked like. At a certain point in time, certainly not across three centuries per your OP.

    Ian Heath is not a sculptor/figure manufacturer. You understand this, oui?

     

     

    "I'm not signing that"

    #78478
    Cerdic
    Participant

    In an age when all equipment was individually made by craftsmen and the wealthy would buy whatever they thought was effective and cool, I don’t think there would be much in the way of standardisation.

    So if you turned up at the mustering of your Lord’s host, I doubt there would be a bloke with a clipboard going “no, your mail is too long and your shield is the wrong shape! Go home and change immediately!”…

    #78480
    Paskal
    Spectator

    @ Not Connard Sage

    Yes with a typical Welsh shield a figurine that reproduce the illustration No. 48 of the page 95 of the edition of May 1989 of the book “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300” By Ian Heath would be perfect …

    First of all, what manufactures have ranges of 25 / 30mm Welsh figures from the 11th and 12th centuries…

    This also does not exist?

    I have the impression that the 25 / 30mm Welsh figures references are just there to serve as auxiliaries to the feudal and medieval English armies …

    #78481
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    You have to take into consideration that Giraldus (Gerald de Barri) is an Anglo-Norman-Welsh snob who is trying to climb the greasy pole of ecclesiastical preferment and neatly divides Welsh society into Native and Marcher – with a distinct sneer at the Native side. He’s basing his descriptions on ‘native’ troops he sees as he was trying (and possibly not doing that well) to get lords to commit to the Third Crusade – the Welsh Marcher lords were dressed mostly like English Norman nobles and maintained retainers. Often regarded as being very pro Welsh (he possibly had family connections to Welsh Royalty) by English commentators and historians, a lot of his compliments are backhanded and he was quite disparaging in his comparisons between Native Welsh society and warfare and the Marcher equivalents. He may have been accurate in his description of some Welsh lords and troops, but to extrapolate that all (or even many) were as Gerald describes is a leap of faith.

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