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  • #78850
    Paskal
    Spectator

    @ Not Connard Sage

    You write: “Much credibility has been given to the limited sources by the figure makers too …”

    Do you mean that figurines representing feudal Welsh are not valid?

    #78851
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Not Connard Sage wrote :

    “Let’s not, can we keep away from ‘clan’ tartans too ?

    Yes because unlike the Scots, the pure Welsh are Britonnic Celts, this is their celticity is easier to feel …

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    #78859
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Would this be a bad time to ask what we actually mean by Celts?

    Racial group? No.

    Cultural group, possibly-ish

    Language group – yes

    Anything else? Rude word for barbarian? Undoubtedly – I blame the Greeks.

    But as for ‘pure’ anything in the British Isles? Might be a short haired schnauzer somewhere.

    #78862
    Paskal
    Spectator

    It’s a group of Indo-European peoples whose main link is the Celtic language, divided into several groups … For example the Celtic Gallic as the Gauls, Celtic Britonnic as the magnificent Bretons or the Welsh,  Celtic Cornish as the Cornish, Celtics Gaelic  as the Irish, the Scottish ect …

    But by the way, the question is, what are the manufacturers that offer us the right 25/28mm figures for a Welsh army of the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries …

    #78863
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Would this be a bad time to ask what we actually mean by Celts? Racial group? No. Cultural group, possibly-ish Language group – yes Anything else? Rude word for barbarian? Undoubtedly – I blame the Greeks. But as for ‘pure’ anything in the British Isles? Might be a short haired schnauzer somewhere.

     

    There’s a nasty whiff of nationalism permeating this thread, and it’s becoming more overt.

    Right…

    Speaking as a (part) Goidelic Celt, you Johnny-come-lately Brythonic types can all bugger orf with your funny Cymric languages and leave the British Isles to we Gaelic speaking Scots, Irish and Manx. We’re the ‘pure’ Celts, ‘cos we was here first.

    So there. 🙂

     

    "I'm not signing that"

    #78866
    Paskal
    Spectator

    In first, the pure Celts?

    The first ones are the Bretons who emigrated in armorica, they were in your island well before the Romans, Germanic, Gaelic, Scandinavian, Norman, French and the other components which constituted the army of the bastard of Normandy…

    #78869
    Paskal
    Spectator

    I just remember what I wanted to say much higher …

    Here are the Welsh are very nice to do as an army of figurines because  even in the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth centuries, they seem straight out of the Arthurian era, it is that which is their obsolete charm which I so often spoken …

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    #78872
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Sorry Paskal – I was teasing slightly about Celts.

    But regarding your search for Welsh Uchelwyr, I’d use early medieval mail clad, round shielded generic western horse (with hose/leggings/trousers) for 11th century, possibly early 12th.

    Then go looking for early crusade/late Norman.

    And then for 13th use Scots/lower class English/poor French noblemen. I’d avoid the more fanciful Irish offerings.

    Oh – and I’ll have you know Mr NCS, fellow me lad, Farrish is a Scottish name; from the borders though – so still probably an ‘orrible mix of Strathclyde Welsh, Saxon, Viking and that’s just that bit – the rest covers half Europe and beyond – so definitely a mongrel – should give me stamina and a healthy coat.

    #78874
    Paskal
    Spectator

    It is true that we are moving away from the subject and it can lead to arguments …Now let’s try to see the interesting 25/30 mm valable figures for a Welsh army.

    #78878
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Sorry Paskal – I was teasing slightly about Celts. But regarding your search for Welsh Uchelwyr, I’d use early medieval mail clad, round shielded generic western horse (with hose/leggings/trousers) for 11th century, possibly early 12th. Then go looking for early crusade/late Norman. And then for 13th use Scots/lower class English/poor French noblemen. I’d avoid the more fanciful Irish offerings. Oh – and I’ll have you know Mr NCS, fellow me lad, Farrish is a Scottish name; from the borders though – so still probably an ‘orrible mix of Strathclyde Welsh, Saxon, Viking and that’s just that bit – the rest covers half Europe and beyond – so definitely a mongrel – should give me stamina and a healthy coat.

    Reiver scum eh? Stepson lives in Dunbar and works in Melrose. I think there’s still a bit of a reiver mentality persists in Gala…;)

    And ‘oo you callin’ a fanciful Irish offerin’?  😀

     

     

    "I'm not signing that"

    #78891
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Not Connard Sage you’re moving away from the topic, re-read the original question or answer it: the question is now, what are the manufacturers that offer the right 25 / 28mm figures for a Welsh army of the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries …

    #79004
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Nah! He was just playing.

    There are no ‘right figures’ for Uchelwyr.

    And we seem to have established that the one you want doesn’t, for the moment, exist.

    I thought the discussion around exactly what you were looking for was quite interesting and useful. It made me go back to sources and check. (I may pop into the University Library and have a dig in some of their material). So for me; all bonus – thanks for the original question and thanks everyone for the lighthearted discussion.

    I will keep looking for your figure Paskal, but as I said initially, I think DIY may be the answer.

    #79008
    Mike Headden
    Participant

    Not Connard Sage you’re moving away from the topic, re-read the original question or answer it: the question is now, what are the manufacturers that offer the right 25 / 28mm figures for a Welsh army of the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries …

    I think it’s pretty comprehensively established that the figure you asked about doesn’t exist and probably doesn’t represent what you think it does anyway.

    Seems to me a wider, a more light hearted discussion is not a bad thing.

    I’ve enjoyed all of the posts here – badinage included.

    Being  half Scottish, half Cornish by birth and having lived in Wales for a time I’m finding it all rather interesting.

     

    Growing old is mandatory, growing up is entirely optional!

    #79011
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    Paskal:

    if you don’t mind expensive and big 30mm miniatures then Mierce Miniatures makes this rather ersatz interpretation of Uchelwyr:

    https://goo.gl/images/zUZVDt

    Cheers.

    Rod Robertson.

    #79014
    Paskal
    Spectator

    @Mike Headden

    And I, I think that nothing has ever established and that the figure that I asked exists can be, there is no reason.

    The proof I came across quite by chance on the Uchelwyrs of GB.

    But obviously to find, we must seek and ask for help to his friends who have the same passion …

    #79015
    Paskal
    Spectator

    @ Guy Farrish

    Thank you Guy so let’s continue to check and discuss, as long as it does not end in water of pudding …

    I wait for my refercences DAC-01 and if it can be done and if I am looking for, I will do beautiful Uchelwyr exactly as in the book WRG, so often quoted …

    But I’m a Breton of pure stock (Ancient Brittons = Sub Roman British = Breton – that’s why I love both Welsh and Cornish because the Bretons Wales and Cornwall – now British – even before they became known as such…), not a descendant of these shabby Gauls of Armorica. ..

    And so like all real Breton stubborn like a mule (of the British artillery ?), I will continue to look for Uchelwyr even if I transform figurines …

    And you’ll see that the day I finish making Uchelwyr presentables, I’ll find some in the trade that seem to come straight out of Ian Heath’s book WRG but without their round shields as by chance, because the sculptors are disciplined people …

    Oh, I forgot we did not talk about the type of spears they took to battle, Javelin, short spear, long spear ?

    Paskal

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    #79018
    Paskal
    Spectator

    @ Rod Robertson

    Sorry Rod but he does not look like Uchelwyr as we imagine, read this topic from the beginning you’ll see and you will see what we are looking for ……

    Paskal

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    #79049
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    Pascal:

    Okay, I read the thread and now I’m all caught up. Assuming you want an Uchelwyr which is mounted how about this figure or one like it from here:

    Strathclyde Mounted Warlord B ST01b

    It matches the written description quite well.

    Cheers.

    Rod Robertson.

    #79051
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Sorry Rod, I’ve already seen it’s the one from Gripping Beast Minatures, it’s not valid fo me , I want one like in illustration No. 48 of the page 95 of the edition of May 1989 of the book “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300” by Ian Heath …

    Paskal

    #79144
    Paskal
    Spectator

    This is the 100th post on this topic and still not Ulchelwr, it’s a desperate ..!

    #79147
    Rod Robertson
    Participant

    Paskal:

    This mini of Richard Coeur de Lion is a pretty close approximation to what is pictured on page 1 of this thread. Switch out the lance for a sword and file down the top of the helmet to make it rounder, replace the shield if you want and bingo, Bob’s your uncle!

    http://www.mirliton.it/product_info.php?pName=richard-the-lionheart-mounted-late-12-th-century

    Cheers.

    Rod Robertson

    #79153
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Yes, thank you for the  link but there’s going to be some leg work … Actually I’m waiting for Old Glory’s reference DAC-01 and that should go with Welsh round shields, but I still do not know what kind of spears they used ?

    Cheers

    Paskal

    #79196
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Paskal, I meant to ask before – when you say you are waiting for Old Glory reference DAC-01, do you mean you have ordered some and await their arrival? Or are you waiting for better photographs than on their website?

     

     

    #79203
    Paskal
    Spectator

    As some of my “Topics” show, I’m waiting for Christmas, masses of figures for the Crusades, especially my dear knights of Christ – all of them of my favorite manufacture Old Glory , because the Old Glory figurines come straight from the works of the WRG which are my Bibles – and among these Old Glory- figurines I wait the reference DAC-01 with which may I have been told, make next year Uchelwyr …

    PS:In this regard my two topics on the knights of Christ on this forum have remained in plan ?!

    This is not so interested person ?

    #79215
    Patrice
    Participant

    In my opinion the nobility in North-West Europe at this time (English, Welsh, French (in the north), Breton) was wearing almost the same style of fashionable clothes and armour everywhere (if available).

    For example the Breton knights who fought at Hastings looked very much like Norman knights (but with different tactics). And they had probably never heard about being Celtic – the Celts were not much mentioned in books in this time.

    So any knight figure of the period would do; unless you specifically want a figure directly inspired by the drawing in Ian Heath’s book; I don’t know any but perhaps we could find some quite close.

    http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
    https://www.anargader.net/

    #79234
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Hello young Patrice,

    If the nobility in North-West Europe at this time (English, Welsh, French (in the north), Breton) was wearing almost the same style of fashionable clothes and armor everywhere, it’s  with national variations rather than one believe – chauvinism helping and that was their charms -, for example in the 13th century, I can not imagine Uchelwyr no Welsh mounted opponents with bare legs or round shields …

    Maybe they were probably heard about being Celtic – but they knew who was not.

    And anyway the Celtic languages, were not written at the time

    Also Patrice for me, no knight figure of the period will do the trick; For the reasons explained above, but I also want – by passion for the books of the WRG – a figure specifically inspired by the drawing of the book by Ian Heath …

    Paskal

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Paskal.
    #79238
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    I understand now what it is you want Paskal, and I hope you find it.

    On a small note – there is not a lot of surviving written Welsh from the period you are talking about, but:

    The earliest written Welsh is a probably a stone inscription from the eighth century – Tywyn Stone.

    Earliest continuous Welsh text is the settlement of a land dispute between Tudfwlch son of Llywyd and
    Elgu son of Gelli, in the Book of St Chad in Lichfield Cathedral Library. The book is eighth century but the Welsh is a probably ninth century addition.

    There are other Welsh glosses in Latin texts in the ninth and tenth centuries.

    The twelfth century book of Llandaff holds written Welsh records in an Old Welsh linguistic style which are either copied from earlier written sources or reflect a memorised archaic linguistic form.

    The Mabinogion tales similarly – although our current earliest copies are circa mid fourteenth century  – freeze an earlier archaic linguistic form, probably c1100.

    So there may not be a lot of surviving written Welsh from the period we are discussing – but there was obviously some about.

     

    PS – back to my point, if the majority of written Welsh thought was in Latin, court works etc, that ties Welsh elites even more closely into the standard European elite model, bound by the language and customs of clerics in spiritual and secular roles.

    #79243
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Guy can it be that the Celtic languages at the time of the “Dark Ages” and the feudal and medieval era could be written? But it is well known that before anything was oral and memorized as in the Gauls for example also the druids of the Gauls had work over the head …

    #79570
    Paskal
    Spectator

    There is a good god for me because there is a good day for me !

    The reference DAC-1 of Old glory in 25mm: 12th Century Crusader Knights is exactly what I wanted …to represent Uchelwyr !

    Four variations out of five or 9 figures in this reference reproduce exactly illustration no. 48 on page 95 of the May 1989 edition of Ian Heath’s book “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300” which I so much desired and the fifth variant, the tenth figure, would represent a Welsh king!

    But I’ll have to find out about a Welsh king’s haircut and if he had mustaches and / or a beard…

    I will not even have to file the legs that are not covered by the mesh but by the long tunic …

    In addition the hands are bare, a stroke of luck …

    The only thing left to do is to find Welsh shields and find out what types spears they used …

    So here’s a case almost settled …

    Paskal

    #79582
    Stewart Johnson
    Participant

    I am far from convinced that the Welsh looked any difference to anyone else TBH. The area was poor for one thing and hence a lot of the equipment would have been taken off the various Vikings, Mercians, Normans and other Welsh who happened to invade any given area.

    For Gwynedd there was also a lot of trade with Dublin and England providing other sources of contemporary kit. Plus of course later on, mercenary service in England.

    And the Uchelwyr were not mounted infantry. They weren’t knights either but they were decent horsemen – there is after all a cavalry tradition that stretches back centuries and there’s enough flat places to breed horses.

    As for bare legs and indeed feet. Again I’m wary of this as it seems to be a somewhat sneering English convention showing how poor the Welsh were rather than anything practical. As mentioned, Wales is cold and damp at the best of times and one simply does not go wandering around with bare skin if you can help it.

    #79595
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Mr Stewart Johnson, I think you missed an episode and you have to re-read this ‘Topic’ since the 08/12/2017 at 19:41 …

    I think that free Welsh people had their own military culture on all levels …

    Of course, we know that the Uchelwyrs were neither mounted infantry nor knights …

    Which proves that their military cultures is still very different(Moreover, when do the Uchelwyrs disappear?).

    They were rather the worthy descendant of the heavy Breton insular cavalry of the time of the historical Arthur but with a more modern equipment …

    Except that the Welsh Cavalery has always been proportionately smaller in numbers than those of the Arthurian Bretons ( Sub -Roman – British)

    Moreover, the free Welsh warriors of the 12th and 13th centuries seem to come straight out of the Dark Ages – unlike the English of the 12th and 13th centuries – which makes all their charms …

    It is only from the 14th century that they will start to look like their English adversaries …

    #79599
    Stewart Johnson
    Participant

    Yes, I didn’t notice there were several pages of posts before butting in… 🙂

    Uchelwyr disappear with the conquest in 1282 I think, but by then they were knights more or less indistinguishable from English ones.

    I would strongly disagree that the Welsh in the 12th century looked much different to contemporary English TBH. There’s bene much talk of ‘Celts’ but at the time no such distinction was made. It’s mainly an 18th century romantic invention.

    The Welsh would have recognised kinship with Bretons, but no closer ties to the Irish than anyone else – the languages are quite different.

    And contact – indeed intermarriage – with the Normans was common. Llewellyn Fawr had an English wife after all. Traditionally the ruler sof Gwynedd also had very strong familial links to Dublin Vikings and had therefore links to the Norse world as well as Ireland.

    None of this speaks to a society which doesn’t change for centuries at a time – whatever the Osprey book states!

    The average Welshman was dirt poor, but then so was the average English peasant. Both had access to the same materials and I assume both looked pretty similar.

    Except – and this answers a question above, the Welsh were big on moustaches and not so much on beards…

    As an aside I’ll recommend Anglo-Welsh Wars 1050-1200 by Stuart Ivinson. Not only because he’s a University friend and used to be my wargaming doubles partner, but because it’s a good book on the period.

    He works these days at Royal Armouries…

    #79600
    Stewart Johnson
    Participant

    To continue my musings about the cultural influences on Gwynedd – which i know most about since I live here…:)

    We have the influence of the Church. Bangor was an important diocese.

    From 1082-1108 the Bishop was Hervey le Breton… who obviously isn’t local.
    1120-1139 David the Scot had the position, He was probably Irish but had previously live din Wurzburg.
    1197-1213  Robert of Shrewsbury – an Englishman.

    In this period St. Davids also frequently has foreign bishops.

    So I suspect the idea of Pura Walia being some romantic backwater just isn’t true – though to reflect the poverty using armour styles a few decade solder than the period depicted might be reasonable.

    #79603
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Bravo,I also know that in the Middle Ages, Breton people understood the Welsh language and the Welsh the Breton language !!!

    Finally, as the Bretons are partly from the current Galles but before Wales exists (before 580 AD) and the rest of the Bretons from Cornwall English, also for me who is a Breton of pure stock, the Welsh and the Cornish people (from Britain) are living ancestor species, cousin species, and I love them a lot for that.

    #79604
    Stewart Johnson
    Participant

    Diving into the web for some answers…

    http://heatherrosejones.com/welshfaqs/clothing.html#MWC

    OK this is for the SCA, but the author seems to know her stuff – and she points out there’s no evidence that Western European dress really differed much and there was no notion of ‘national’ styles of dress.

    Hence a Welsh peasant probably looked much like an English or French one except….(taken from above link)

    The Welsh seemed to have retained the use of the square cloak (‘llen’ or ‘brychan’) longer than most other peoples.

    English observers note the Welsh dressed poorly in a tunic and woollen cloak. The big omission here is an over tunic, plus they frequently went bare legged..

    This is almost certainly down to economics not fashion and hence we can assume an Uchelwr could afford some decent hose!

    Especially as contemporary Welsh law assumes decent woollen/linen clothes, hose, tunics and shoes are normal..

    #79608
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Sorry double post somehow.

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 9 months ago by Guy Farrish.
    #79609
    Guy Farrish
    Participant

    Stewart I suggest you don’t go round the buoy again – most(all?) of this is well travelled ground!).

    I think you may find Paskal has a very clear set of parameters for his search, based more on a Hayden White approach to narrative in history – ie not tied to the procrustean requirements of evidential exactitude. Each rereading is a retelling and as valid as any other.

    He wants what he wants and I wish him well.

    I frequently ‘make up’ heraldic markings for my high middle ages (Paskal, ce n’est pas le haut moyen age en Francais, qui commence en 476, apres la fin de l’empire romain l’Occident mais l’age qui commence vers 1066-1100 et se termine vers 1450) armies, I see no reason why he shouldn’t make up a ‘Welsh’ army of his choosing.

    #79638
    Paskal
    Spectator

    Exactly the guys I know and I have said many times what I wanted on this ‘Topic’ since the 08/12/2017 at 19:41 …

    As I’m stubborn like a mule ((Main feature of the Breton pure strain)), I’m done searching for what I wanted, this is the reference DAC-1 of Old Glory in 25mm: 12th Century Crusader Knights, it’s exactly what I wanted … to represent Uchelwyr!

    The only thing left to do is to find out which shields and what kind of spears they used …

    And to mount an army of free Welsh North, what are the proportions of horsemen, spearmen and archers without foreigners in its ranks? I guess that has evolved … But finally historical examples would be welcome ..

    – LOL – This is certainly the documentation that Ian Heath used to sketch the illustration no. 48 on page 95 of the May 1989 edition of his  book “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300”

    http://warfare.gq/13/Seal_of_Llywelyn_ab_Iorwerth.htm?i=1

    http://warfare.gq/14/Effigy-Gruffydd_ap_Llywelyn_ab_Ynyr.htm

    http://warfare.gq/index.htm

    to create the drawing below, also thanks to many readings …

    http://warfare.gq//WRG/Feudal-48-Welsh_Uchelwyr.htm

    #79669
    Stewart Johnson
    Participant

    For an army of Gwynedd you wouldn’t have that many horsemen. In 1282 the Teulu of Llewellyn ap Gruffydd was around 160, though he did field up to 500 cavalry when supporting Simon de Monfort in 1256 (with allegedly some 30,000 infantry). Perhaps the remainder were scouts?

    For comparison the army of Deheubarth had 600 infantry and 2000 cavalry at Crug Mawr in 1136.

    But… depending on what rules you’re using you could justify having the whole lot mounted if you’re depicting a small raiding party off to reduce the cattle feed expenditure of the good people of Cheshire 🙂

    Going from memory I think the south Welsh were the main archers and the North Welsh mainly spearmen, though they would have had some archers.

    Shields? Depends quite what period you want. Traditional round shields would be appropriate plus whatever was picked up on service across the border.

    Spears? I’d guess no actual standard length, but it would to some extent depend on the size of ash tree you had to hand… 🙂 That said the North Welsh are recorded as bracing themselves for cavalry using spears rammed into the ground in the early 13th century but other records say they threw spears. Given they are note as carrying more than one than could translate as a relatively long or heavy one for hand to hand and a javelin, But I don’t think we’re talking pikes here but a standard Dark Age length.

    As ever the issue is with a scarcity of sources, inexact use of terminology and the fact that foreign sources may not be objective.

    #79671
    Stewart Johnson
    Participant

    By the way your second link is for Grufydd ap Llewellyn ab Ynyr.

    He is not the same person as Gruffydd ap Llewellyn King of Wales in the 11th century, but a Denbighshire knight who died in 1320.

    Hence he seems to have standard kit for the time, which makes sense as he’s a knight in the service to an English king at least one generation after the conquest.

    Apologies if you knew this, but Welsh patronymics can be confusing!

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