Home Forums Horse and Musket Napoleonic Which rules?

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  • #3457
    guy osborne
    Participant

    I am seeking advise to which rules would suit someone looking into 28mm napoleonics. I have no figures at all as yet. Want to find rule system first. Many thanks in advance.

     

    #3460
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Blimey.

     

    How many figures do you want to paint?

    What size table have you got?

    Do you want to be Napoleon, or Sharpe? Or Lannes. Or..? Meaning, what level of command are you thinking of? Army? Brigade?  Battalion? Company?

    There’s no simple answer, and most people, including me, will simply post their own favourites.

    🙂

     

     

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #3461
    guy osborne
    Participant

    Blimey. How many figures do you want to paint? What size table have you got? Do you want to be Napoleon, or Sharpe? Or Lannes. Or..? Meaning, what level of command are you thinking of? Army? Brigade? Battalion? Company? There’s no simple answer, and most people, including me, will simply post their own favourites. :)

    oh yes good point . Table 8ft x 6 ft in old money . I’m thinking battalion level . I like painting have been war gaming ww2/ scifi for 30 years . Played napoleonic with airfix a long time ago and would like to start again.

    #3464
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Well, Black Powder gets a lot of love. Not from me, played it once, didn’t like it. Far too ‘make it up as you go along’ for my tastes.

    But what do I know? A sensible person will be along shortly to give you a proper answer.

    In the mean time, you could look at Sam Mustafa’s ‘Lasalle’ rules. I like those 😉

    http://www.sammustafa.com/honour/modules-games/lasalle/

    Scroll down this page, bottom left

    http://www.sammustafa.com/honour/downloads/

    Should give you an idea of what I’m on about.

     

    Another tip, avoid these like the plague

     

     

     

     

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #3468
    guy osborne
    Participant

    Many thanks for that will take a look. Did you get PDF copy or hard copy of rules? Which 28mm figure range do you use?

    #3471
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    I have the hard copy. It’s a very nice book, with lots of eye candy, and the rules are quite solid and well written.

    I must admit that I’m a fan of Sam’s earlier rules, including Lasalle, but not so much his later ones that use card systems.

    All my 28s are Front Rank. FR are a bit ‘Marmite’, you either love them or hate them 😀

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #3478
    Sparker
    Participant

    Well to prove Connard right I will disagree with him on almost every point. Well, not about the Front Rank, they are gorgeous figures, especially the new ‘Reinforcements’ range!

    To be honest I haven’t played Lasalle, I was put off just by reading the rules. And thats not to say I’m not a Sam Mustafa groupie, I love his Maurice and Longstreet rules and am quietly confident that his Blucher Napoleonic Operational rules will be the industry standard for strategic games. But I didn’t think Lasalle brought anything new to the evolution of rules, apart perhaps from some elegant artillery effects.

    Whereas Black Powder somehow manages to combine fast play, and the management of large battles that this allows, with delivering an authentic feel of the horse and musket period, whilst allowing the play to concentrate on tactics and battle management during the game.

    Thats not to say there is a lot of work involved before the game, in setting troop stats, selecting scenario specific rules, and so on – there is! But because its all done before the game – or taken from one of the various supplements, once you step up to the plate its all plain sailing, so that the only frustration comes from the action and your troops’ reactions – which is how it should be!

    So what is revolutionary about Black Powder – there are several things: a simple and effective ‘friction of war’ mechanism that allows your troops to either thumb their nose at your orders, or go off on a mad cap charge you didn’t order, coupled with slightly more complex mechanism to model commander characteristics if you choose; the ability to close to engagement range very fast, which allows large scale battalion level games such as Borodino (at a 50% Orbat ratio) to be completed in a day; and the selection of add-on special rules to allow you to put together a very period, army and campaign specific set of rules for your given battle.

    As an example, I have been wargaming for over 30 years, and have read about how the superior Grande Armee of the glory years 1805-1807 was able to run rings around larger but slower thinking and moving coalition armies simply because of its elan and superior leadership and centralised command. No rules until Black Powder have allowed me to replicate that on the table top without crude ‘Plus 1 for being French’ biases. Whereas Black Powder allows you to reflect the OODA loop reaction times and qualatative leadership differences without necessarily reducing the quality of the fine Prussian, Austrian and Russian Regiments who were so poorly led.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Sparker.

    http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
    'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
    Matthew 5:9

    #3481
    Peeler
    Participant

    You may like to look at the General de Brigade forum for rules that suit 36 figure Btns, or the DBN forum if you want 8 figure Brigades. I like both, obviously they play differently.

    #3741
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Take a look at ” In the name of Glory” on the freewargames.co.uk  web site, which will link to the yahoo group. The mechanics are easy to pick up and the system uses the units morale more than relying on casualties.

    #3791
    Cardinal Biggles
    Participant

    Another vote for Lasalle. An easy game system to begin playing the period. My current club use Shako, which are quick and easy, and only need 18 figs per unit. They needed a bit of modification, and the order system inspired by that in Napoleon’s Battles made it a playable set of rules. If you want to use a bit more brainpower,  then Gen de Brig is a very popular set in 28mm if you dont mind buying and painting 36 and 40 man units.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #3795
    Bandit
    Participant

    And here I thought Sparker was the ***only*** guy who played something other than General de Brigade with 28mm 😉

    Anyways, I don’t have a horse in this race as I play 15mm but I’ve seen enough people get excited about GdB and 28mm that I thought those two were kinda a pair.

    #3796
    Sparker
    Participant

    They were very popular and are certainly a good workmanlike set of rules. But I and I think a few others have moved on to the bright sunlit uplands of Black Powder. No way of knowing of course, and each little clique or region has its favourites, but if I were a sporting man I’d wager that Black Powder has overtaken GdeBde in popularity.

    Which is no guarantee of quality of course….

    As it goes I also use BP for my rate 15mm games – using centimetres instead of inches – which for some peculiar reason makes the command radii very tight and so the question of where to put your Generals becomes agonisingly critical!

     

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Sparker.

    http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
    'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
    Matthew 5:9

    #3829
    Tassie Wargamer
    Participant

    I can’t say I have a wide experience of Napoleonic rules but I recently played Black Powder for the first time and they proved quite enjoyable and fairly easy to pick up. I played Shako 1st edition for years and found them to be a generally good set of rules, so I presume Shako 2nd edition is equally as good.

    My Blog: http://wargamespavilion.wordpress.com/

    #3836
    3rd95th
    Participant

    I must admit that “General de Brigade” are my favourite set, but most of my games are played in the evenings after work and in all honesty most of the time I don’t have enough brain cells left firing to deal with it.

    Black Powder is a set of rules that repays the effort that you put in before hand very much as Sparker says. They are fun, quick and can deal with really big games.

    I’ve recently turned to Lasalle because you can just dice for scenarios as per the book, and pick the core forces and support straight out of the book too. The  unit stats are easy to remember and you can link all the games you play together into a campaign as per the system provided.

    So in a nutshell I like all three of the above, but in terms of ease of post -workday-use (and this is purely personal) I’d go:

    1. Lasalle – because it’s easy to play a game “off the peg” and the rules themselves are relatively simple.

    2. Black Powder –  easy to play, but there’s a lot of pre-game work re stats.

    3. General de Brigade – I reckon they are the most “realistic” (please don’t ask me to define that) – but after work sometimes the turn sequence and adding up involved do my head in.

    Of course if you play at weekends or have a brain that isn’t addled with advanced age your priorities may well be totally different and all the above can be safely ignored!

    Cheer,

    Neal

     

     

     

     

     

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by 3rd95th.

    μολὼν λαβέ

    #3881
    Sparker
    Participant

    Great points Neal. I’ve not thought of that before but now its obvious that what might be a great set of rules for a long anticipated, multiplayer historical game with lots of email interactions between players about the scenario and troop stats benefits from a set of rules that may not necessarily be ideal for a quick and relaxing ‘pick-up’ game after a long day at the coal face…

    Maybe designers should start producing ‘Lite’ versions of their rules for the harassed wargamer on the go!

    In our circle we have developed what we call the ‘Black Powder 123’ concept – a series of 6 set scenarios involving no more than 1,2, and 3 units – whether they be Foot, Horse or Guns is left either to the specific scenario, or to the players choice, depending on the scenario. So above you see a Prussian BP123 force of 3 Infantry Bns, and in the background 2 Cav Regiments and an artillery battery. We use none of the BP special rules and only the ‘plain vanilla’ troop stats from the main rulebook. It takes all the prep time out of things, although its main purpose is to train us up in the core rules so we are better at the really big games we love…

    http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/black-powder-123-tourney-at-hall-of.html

    http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/black-powder-123.html

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Sparker.

    http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
    'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
    Matthew 5:9

    #4152
    Sam Mustafa
    Participant

    Wow, it’s nice to be back on a website with Sparker and Connard Sage….  Comfy seats here, and the coffee smells good, too.  I like it.

    #4189
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    Hi Sam 🙂

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

    #4190
    Henry Hyde
    Participant

    Good to see you here, Sam.

    Editor, Battlegames
    http://battlegames.co.uk
    Battlegames on Patreon
    https://www.patreon.com/battlegames
    Author, The Wargaming Compendium
    http://amzn.to/leWoNO

    #4514
    Sparker
    Participant

    Wow – a really big wargaming name. Be good to get commentary on rules and gaming from someone who’s been there, done that, had it published to popular acclaim!

    http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
    'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
    Matthew 5:9

    #4531
    Steve Burt
    Participant

    What are you doing wasting time on here, Sam?

    Shouldn’t you be getting Blucher finished? 

    #4573
    Sam Mustafa
    Participant

    Hi guys!  In the words of Hunter S. Thompson:

    “How strange to find so many mutants all in one place…”

    #4822
    Nick the Lemming
    Participant

    What are you doing wasting time on here, Sam? Shouldn’t you be getting Blucher finished?

     

    What he said! 😛

    #4823
    Shahbahraz
    Participant

    Personally, I like Polemos. But it’s a minority interest. And welcome aboard Sam, really loving Maurice as innovative and fun.

     

    cheers

    --An occasional wargames blog: http://aleadodyssey.blogspot.co.uk/ --

    #4839
    kyoteblue
    Participant

    Glad to see you Sam.

    #4908
    dhauser
    Participant

    I have Lasalle and have read them but haven’t played them. I have Black Powder and have read and played them. They seem to be different games and I’m of the mind that they will both satisfy different requirements on gaming. BP a more generic quicker playing game and Lasalle a little closer feel for the period with a bit more detail. I don’t think you go wrong with either system. Agree with Not Connard; I have Napoleon and couldn’t finish reading them.

    Chickens got livers? I'm gettin' some!

    #4929
    Iain Fuller
    Participant

    Is it just me but does the chap in the middle of the cover to ‘Napoleon’ mentioned above look like the late, great Lord Flashheart?

    I’d definately buy ‘Flashheart of the 95th’ – he’d be miles better than that Sharpe johnny.

    #5054
    Sparker
    Participant

    What are you doing wasting time on here, Sam?Shouldn’t you be getting Blucher finished?

    Lol! Trust me, it will be well worth the wait! Playtesting my Eckmuhl scenario tomorrow – can’t wait!

    http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
    'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
    Matthew 5:9

    #5427
    Iain Fuller
    Participant

    Sparker: Are you sworn to secrecy or are you allolwed to share some thoughts on your Blucher playtest?

    I’m guessing it is the former………

    #5456
    Sam Mustafa
    Participant

    It is most definitely the former!

    #5458
    Steve Burt
    Participant

    We just played a very enjoyable Napoleonic game using Maurice with a few small changes (mainly adding rules for squares and attack columns).

    So while waiting for Blucher, we have another alternative if we want card-driven Napoleonic goodness.

    #5548
    Iain Fuller
    Participant

    I thought that would be the case Mr M.

    Will you be releasing some playtest based AAR’s or ‘teaser’ shots/articles in the future?

    #5564
    Sam Mustafa
    Participant

    Yeah, I’ll do a more detailed informational flyer soonish, and I’ll probably be doing a bit of video for this game as well.

    #5570
    Iain Fuller
    Participant

    Cool and the gang. Cheers.

    #7809
    teppsta
    Participant

    General de Brigade gives a good game and the forum provides excellent support. I don’t agree it is especially complex although perhaps that is because I play quite regularly. At the other end of the scale Sharpe Practice is fun too.

    #7812
    grizzlymc
    Participant

    A good move beforew you start painting, basing and swotting up on rules might be to see what potential opponents play.  If you are all set up for one thing and the local club is doing something else getting together for humungous games could become a pain in the A.

     

    Of course if, like me, you live at the end of the world and mainly play solo, you can pick and choose.  But at its best wargaming is a social activity and it is more fun when the rules are learnt and don’t matter.  So slumming it with the club’s rules and then coming home to have “real” solo games is not really a solution, unless that is your thing of course.

    #8339
    Mark Haughey
    Participant

    This is an interesting question.  My club, the NWS, recently did a survey of its members that indirectly covered this topic (the aim was to find out what people wanted to do for the Waterloo bicentenary).  The results of the survey can be found here: http://napoleonicwargamingsociety.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/nws-survey-part-1-waterloo-1815-2015.html

    The simple answer to the question which rules is probably any, but there was a slight preference for General de Brigade.

    My bias is for Napoleon’s Battles (as I like big games where I am commanding a decent sized army, or at least a corps or two) and I am excited about a fourth edition about to be released soon.  However I was in a minority of one :-).  I also wouldn’t use those rules for 28mm.

    All the best on your quest.

    • This reply was modified 6 years, 4 months ago by Mark Haughey.
    #8341
    Mark Haughey
    Participant

    The ANF have also done some work on “what rules” and I can recommend their blog: http://avonnapoleonicfellowship.blogspot.com.au/p/evaluating-rules.html

    They are 1/72nd scale die-hards and I’ve participated in a couple of their big games using their adaption of Shako.  I have been inspired enough to get my old Airfix 1/72nd scale units out and even to have a go at painting up some more.  I have to say it is a reasonably priced alternative, particularly given the figures available today and if masses of figures are what you want.

    #8546
    poniatowski
    Participant

    I am a masochist.. I play 1:40 15mm company level….. I will chime in on a rule set once mine gets copywrited. There are so many good sets out there and it all depends on how much time you have, how detailed you want to be and what scale and level you want to run. Also.. if you are a Fog of War fellow or prefer written and limited commands, etc….

    I have played so many good ones at so many scales… I guess you need to consider what you want from the game before you take the leap, research, play a few systems…. then write your own, loke so many other folks, LOL!

    Seriously though… it is a big leap and not to be considered lightly as it will be a major investment of time and money… painitng and buying…

     

    p

    #8675
    Secret Squirrel
    Participant

    A number of points:

    1. WHAT! Sam has let Sparker have a Blucher play test. Not fair. AND, and Sir, Sir … he said, he said that he didn’t like Lassalle. He said that, really he did. Nah nah.

    2. I’ve support WHUFC from when Bobby Moore was alive; saw him play for Fulham though … not good.

    3. Black Powder is a really good set of rules, just like Lassalle

    4. I own a copy of Lassalle and I’ve played it and liked it … waiting for Blucher though as planning a Battle of Waterloo next year with 1 bde = 1 base

     

     

    It's me

    #8699
    Not Connard Sage
    Participant

    4. I own a copy of Lassalle and I’ve played it and liked it … waiting for Blucher though as planning a Battle of Waterloo next year with 1 bde = 1 base

     

    Blucher is due early 2015, just in time for the 200th anniversary of Waterloo.

     

    I think Sam’s getting the hang of marketing

    "I go online sometimes, but everyone's spelling is really bad. It's... depressing."

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