Which rules?

[guy osborne]

I am seeking advise to which rules would suit someone looking into 28mm napoleonics. I have no figures at all as yet. Want to find rule system first. Many thanks in advance.

 

[Not Connard Sage]

Blimey.

 

How many figures do you want to paint?

What size table have you got?

Do you want to be Napoleon, or Sharpe? Or Lannes. Or..? Meaning, what level of command are you thinking of? Army? Brigade?  Battalion? Company?

There’s no simple answer, and most people, including me, will simply post their own favourites.

🙂

 

 

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[guy osborne]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

Blimey. How many figures do you want to paint? What size table have you got? Do you want to be Napoleon, or Sharpe? Or Lannes. Or..? Meaning, what level of command are you thinking of? Army? Brigade? Battalion? Company? There’s no simple answer, and most people, including me, will simply post their own favourites.

oh yes good point . Table 8ft x 6 ft in old money . I’m thinking battalion level . I like painting have been war gaming ww2/ scifi for 30 years . Played napoleonic with airfix a long time ago and would like to start again.

[Not Connard Sage]

Well, Black Powder gets a lot of love. Not from me, played it once, didn’t like it. Far too ‘make it up as you go along’ for my tastes.

But what do I know? A sensible person will be along shortly to give you a proper answer.

In the mean time, you could look at Sam Mustafa’s ‘Lasalle’ rules. I like those 😉

http://www.sammustafa.com/honour/modules-games/lasalle/

Scroll down this page, bottom left

http://www.sammustafa.com/honour/downloads/

Should give you an idea of what I’m on about.

 

Another tip, avoid these like the plague

 

 

 

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[guy osborne]

Many thanks for that will take a look. Did you get PDF copy or hard copy of rules? Which 28mm figure range do you use?

[Not Connard Sage]

I have the hard copy. It’s a very nice book, with lots of eye candy, and the rules are quite solid and well written.

I must admit that I’m a fan of Sam’s earlier rules, including Lasalle, but not so much his later ones that use card systems.

All my 28s are Front Rank. FR are a bit ‘Marmite’, you either love them or hate them 😀

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Sparker]

Well to prove Connard right I will disagree with him on almost every point. Well, not about the Front Rank, they are gorgeous figures, especially the new ‘Reinforcements’ range!

To be honest I haven’t played Lasalle, I was put off just by reading the rules. And thats not to say I’m not a Sam Mustafa groupie, I love his Maurice and Longstreet rules and am quietly confident that his Blucher Napoleonic Operational rules will be the industry standard for strategic games. But I didn’t think Lasalle brought anything new to the evolution of rules, apart perhaps from some elegant artillery effects.

Whereas Black Powder somehow manages to combine fast play, and the management of large battles that this allows, with delivering an authentic feel of the horse and musket period, whilst allowing the play to concentrate on tactics and battle management during the game.

Thats not to say there is a lot of work involved before the game, in setting troop stats, selecting scenario specific rules, and so on – there is! But because its all done before the game – or taken from one of the various supplements, once you step up to the plate its all plain sailing, so that the only frustration comes from the action and your troops’ reactions – which is how it should be!

So what is revolutionary about Black Powder – there are several things: a simple and effective ‘friction of war’ mechanism that allows your troops to either thumb their nose at your orders, or go off on a mad cap charge you didn’t order, coupled with slightly more complex mechanism to model commander characteristics if you choose; the ability to close to engagement range very fast, which allows large scale battalion level games such as Borodino (at a 50% Orbat ratio) to be completed in a day; and the selection of add-on special rules to allow you to put together a very period, army and campaign specific set of rules for your given battle.

As an example, I have been wargaming for over 30 years, and have read about how the superior Grande Armee of the glory years 1805-1807 was able to run rings around larger but slower thinking and moving coalition armies simply because of its elan and superior leadership and centralised command. No rules until Black Powder have allowed me to replicate that on the table top without crude ‘Plus 1 for being French’ biases. Whereas Black Powder allows you to reflect the OODA loop reaction times and qualatative leadership differences without necessarily reducing the quality of the fine Prussian, Austrian and Russian Regiments who were so poorly led.

http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
Matthew 5:9

[Peeler]

You may like to look at the General de Brigade forum for rules that suit 36 figure Btns, or the DBN forum if you want 8 figure Brigades. I like both, obviously they play differently.

[Anonymous]

Take a look at ” In the name of Glory” on the freewargames.co.uk  web site, which will link to the yahoo group. The mechanics are easy to pick up and the system uses the units morale more than relying on casualties.

[Cardinal Biggles]

Another vote for Lasalle. An easy game system to begin playing the period. My current club use Shako, which are quick and easy, and only need 18 figs per unit. They needed a bit of modification, and the order system inspired by that in Napoleon’s Battles made it a playable set of rules. If you want to use a bit more brainpower,  then Gen de Brig is a very popular set in 28mm if you dont mind buying and painting 36 and 40 man units.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bandit]

And here I thought Sparker was the ***only*** guy who played something other than General de Brigade with 28mm 😉

Anyways, I don’t have a horse in this race as I play 15mm but I’ve seen enough people get excited about GdB and 28mm that I thought those two were kinda a pair.

[Sparker]

They were very popular and are certainly a good workmanlike set of rules. But I and I think a few others have moved on to the bright sunlit uplands of Black Powder. No way of knowing of course, and each little clique or region has its favourites, but if I were a sporting man I’d wager that Black Powder has overtaken GdeBde in popularity.

Which is no guarantee of quality of course….

As it goes I also use BP for my rate 15mm games – using centimetres instead of inches – which for some peculiar reason makes the command radii very tight and so the question of where to put your Generals becomes agonisingly critical!

 

http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
Matthew 5:9

[Tassie Wargamer]

I can’t say I have a wide experience of Napoleonic rules but I recently played Black Powder for the first time and they proved quite enjoyable and fairly easy to pick up. I played Shako 1st edition for years and found them to be a generally good set of rules, so I presume Shako 2nd edition is equally as good.

My Blog: http://wargamespavilion.wordpress.com/

[3rd95th]

I must admit that “General de Brigade” are my favourite set, but most of my games are played in the evenings after work and in all honesty most of the time I don’t have enough brain cells left firing to deal with it.

Black Powder is a set of rules that repays the effort that you put in before hand very much as Sparker says. They are fun, quick and can deal with really big games.

I’ve recently turned to Lasalle because you can just dice for scenarios as per the book, and pick the core forces and support straight out of the book too. The  unit stats are easy to remember and you can link all the games you play together into a campaign as per the system provided.

So in a nutshell I like all three of the above, but in terms of ease of post -workday-use (and this is purely personal) I’d go:

1. Lasalle – because it’s easy to play a game “off the peg” and the rules themselves are relatively simple.

2. Black Powder –  easy to play, but there’s a lot of pre-game work re stats.

3. General de Brigade – I reckon they are the most “realistic” (please don’t ask me to define that) – but after work sometimes the turn sequence and adding up involved do my head in.

Of course if you play at weekends or have a brain that isn’t addled with advanced age your priorities may well be totally different and all the above can be safely ignored!

Cheer,

Neal

 

 

 

 

 

μολὼν λαβέ

[Sparker]

Great points Neal. I’ve not thought of that before but now its obvious that what might be a great set of rules for a long anticipated, multiplayer historical game with lots of email interactions between players about the scenario and troop stats benefits from a set of rules that may not necessarily be ideal for a quick and relaxing ‘pick-up’ game after a long day at the coal face…

Maybe designers should start producing ‘Lite’ versions of their rules for the harassed wargamer on the go!

In our circle we have developed what we call the ‘Black Powder 123’ concept – a series of 6 set scenarios involving no more than 1,2, and 3 units – whether they be Foot, Horse or Guns is left either to the specific scenario, or to the players choice, depending on the scenario. So above you see a Prussian BP123 force of 3 Infantry Bns, and in the background 2 Cav Regiments and an artillery battery. We use none of the BP special rules and only the ‘plain vanilla’ troop stats from the main rulebook. It takes all the prep time out of things, although its main purpose is to train us up in the core rules so we are better at the really big games we love…

http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/black-powder-123-tourney-at-hall-of.html

http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/black-powder-123.html

http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
Matthew 5:9

[Sam Mustafa]

Wow, it’s nice to be back on a website with Sparker and Connard Sage….  Comfy seats here, and the coffee smells good, too.  I like it.

[Not Connard Sage]

Hi Sam 🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Henry Hyde]

Good to see you here, Sam.

Editor, Battlegames
http://battlegames.co.uk
Battlegames on Patreon
https://www.patreon.com/battlegames
Author, The Wargaming Compendium
http://amzn.to/leWoNO

[Sparker]

Wow – a really big wargaming name. Be good to get commentary on rules and gaming from someone who’s been there, done that, had it published to popular acclaim!

http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
Matthew 5:9

[Steve Burt]

What are you doing wasting time on here, Sam?

Shouldn’t you be getting Blucher finished? 

[Sam Mustafa]

Hi guys!  In the words of Hunter S. Thompson:

“How strange to find so many mutants all in one place…”

[Nick the Lemming]

Steve Burt wrote:

What are you doing wasting time on here, Sam? Shouldn’t you be getting Blucher finished?

 

What he said! 😛

Glory Eagles de l'Empereur! blog

[Shahbahraz]

Personally, I like Polemos. But it’s a minority interest. And welcome aboard Sam, really loving Maurice as innovative and fun.

 

cheers

--An occasional wargames blog: http://aleadodyssey.blogspot.co.uk/ --

[kyoteblue]

Glad to see you Sam.

[dhauser]

I have Lasalle and have read them but haven’t played them. I have Black Powder and have read and played them. They seem to be different games and I’m of the mind that they will both satisfy different requirements on gaming. BP a more generic quicker playing game and Lasalle a little closer feel for the period with a bit more detail. I don’t think you go wrong with either system. Agree with Not Connard; I have Napoleon and couldn’t finish reading them.

[Iain Fuller]

Is it just me but does the chap in the middle of the cover to ‘Napoleon’ mentioned above look like the late, great Lord Flashheart?

I’d definately buy ‘Flashheart of the 95th’ – he’d be miles better than that Sharpe johnny.

[Sparker]

Steve Burt wrote:

What are you doing wasting time on here, Sam?Shouldn’t you be getting Blucher finished?

Lol! Trust me, it will be well worth the wait! Playtesting my Eckmuhl scenario tomorrow – can’t wait!

http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com.au/
'Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they shall need to be well 'ard'
Matthew 5:9

[Iain Fuller]

Sparker: Are you sworn to secrecy or are you allolwed to share some thoughts on your Blucher playtest?

I’m guessing it is the former………

[Sam Mustafa]

It is most definitely the former!

[Steve Burt]

We just played a very enjoyable Napoleonic game using Maurice with a few small changes (mainly adding rules for squares and attack columns).

So while waiting for Blucher, we have another alternative if we want card-driven Napoleonic goodness.

[Iain Fuller]

I thought that would be the case Mr M.

Will you be releasing some playtest based AAR’s or ‘teaser’ shots/articles in the future?

[Sam Mustafa]

Yeah, I’ll do a more detailed informational flyer soonish, and I’ll probably be doing a bit of video for this game as well.

[Iain Fuller]

Cool and the gang. Cheers.

[teppsta]

General de Brigade gives a good game and the forum provides excellent support. I don’t agree it is especially complex although perhaps that is because I play quite regularly. At the other end of the scale Sharpe Practice is fun too.

[grizzlymc]

A good move beforew you start painting, basing and swotting up on rules might be to see what potential opponents play.  If you are all set up for one thing and the local club is doing something else getting together for humungous games could become a pain in the A.

 

Of course if, like me, you live at the end of the world and mainly play solo, you can pick and choose.  But at its best wargaming is a social activity and it is more fun when the rules are learnt and don’t matter.  So slumming it with the club’s rules and then coming home to have “real” solo games is not really a solution, unless that is your thing of course.

[Mark Haughey]

This is an interesting question.  My club, the NWS, recently did a survey of its members that indirectly covered this topic (the aim was to find out what people wanted to do for the Waterloo bicentenary).  The results of the survey can be found here: http://napoleonicwargamingsociety.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/nws-survey-part-1-waterloo-1815-2015.html

The simple answer to the question which rules is probably any, but there was a slight preference for General de Brigade.

My bias is for Napoleon’s Battles (as I like big games where I am commanding a decent sized army, or at least a corps or two) and I am excited about a fourth edition about to be released soon.  However I was in a minority of one :-).  I also wouldn’t use those rules for 28mm.

All the best on your quest.

[Mark Haughey]

The ANF have also done some work on “what rules” and I can recommend their blog: http://avonnapoleonicfellowship.blogspot.com.au/p/evaluating-rules.html

They are 1/72nd scale die-hards and I’ve participated in a couple of their big games using their adaption of Shako.  I have been inspired enough to get my old Airfix 1/72nd scale units out and even to have a go at painting up some more.  I have to say it is a reasonably priced alternative, particularly given the figures available today and if masses of figures are what you want.

[poniatowski]

I am a masochist.. I play 1:40 15mm company level….. I will chime in on a rule set once mine gets copywrited. There are so many good sets out there and it all depends on how much time you have, how detailed you want to be and what scale and level you want to run. Also.. if you are a Fog of War fellow or prefer written and limited commands, etc….

I have played so many good ones at so many scales… I guess you need to consider what you want from the game before you take the leap, research, play a few systems…. then write your own, loke so many other folks, LOL!

Seriously though… it is a big leap and not to be considered lightly as it will be a major investment of time and money… painitng and buying…

 

p

[Secret Squirrel]

A number of points:

1. WHAT! Sam has let Sparker have a Blucher play test. Not fair. AND, and Sir, Sir … he said, he said that he didn’t like Lassalle. He said that, really he did. Nah nah.

2. I’ve support WHUFC from when Bobby Moore was alive; saw him play for Fulham though … not good.

3. Black Powder is a really good set of rules, just like Lassalle

4. I own a copy of Lassalle and I’ve played it and liked it … waiting for Blucher though as planning a Battle of Waterloo next year with 1 bde = 1 base

 

 

It's me

[Not Connard Sage]

Secret Squirrel wrote:

4. I own a copy of Lassalle and I’ve played it and liked it … waiting for Blucher though as planning a Battle of Waterloo next year with 1 bde = 1 base

 

Blucher is due early 2015, just in time for the 200th anniversary of Waterloo.

 

I think Sam’s getting the hang of marketing

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Author]

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