why is modeling and painting part of the hobby

[MustPlayThat]

Well, I like minis and models, but I have poor eyesight and shaky hands, so I like buying predone models. I can see how painting and glueing can be satifying, BUT I like wargaming for the gameplay, I want to wargame with models, not model them. I can see people like it like model railways, but thats not gameplay. I like rules and looking at models, and recreating a battle, and learning about a battle. so why do we have to be forced to model to wargame?

I know people really enjoy modeling, but it should be optional NOT nessasary.

[Mike]

It is optional?

Many people I know buy models and never use them, you don’t have to.
Many people I know buy painted models so they don’t have to paint them.
Many people I know play with unpainted models.
Many people play fast and loose with any sense of realism in rules.
Many people like all the crunch and detail of mega detailed rules.

Is someone insisting you do something ?

[Not Connard Sage]

I hate painting the little buggers, but I’m too tight to pay someone else.

 

I did have some 6mm Napoleonics done a while back though.

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[John D Salt]

MustPlayThat wrote:

why do we have to be forced to model to wargame?

Nobody’s forcing you. It might not be obvious from the extraordinary fascination with their toy soldiers evinced by the most visible UK battlegamers, but there are plenty of ways of wargaming that don’t require geting one’s fingers covered in paint and glue.

I have a moderately large (259) collection of board wargames, and though a couple include miniatures that could be painted, I haven’t painted them. I have fabricated my own cardboard-component games to put on at COW (“Neverwar”, “The Moon-Grey Sea”, “Churchill Troop Leader”, “A Footslogger Situation”, “Gunner, Sabot, Tank!”, “Buckets of Sunshine”) or for teaching purposes (“Artillery Ammunition Resupply Game”, “The Hunting of the PLARK”) and written a couple of solitaire games that can be played with paper and pencil and perhaps a pack of cards (“Ramrod”, “Battle Drill 1944”). So you don’t need miniatures. I even have a set of counters for playing DBA with, which have seen combat on many a hotel room table, and did a good deal towards preserving my sanity during two years in Saudi Arabia.

There are not only plentiful computer games, but one can also now use the computer to fake boardgames (VASSAL) and miniatures games (Tabletop Simulator).

If you are rich, there are commercial games that offer beautiful ready-painted miniatures (Wings or Sails of Glory), or you could pay a painting service, or you could do what a wargaming friend does and trade second-hand painted figures for all his miniatures needs.

Personally, I am determined to enjoy glueing and painting, and will get round to reducing the giant heap of unbuild plastic kits and unpainted plastic soldiers any year now. But nobody’s forcing me.

All the best,

John.

[Geof Downton]

I am primarily a modeller. I enjoy the cutting, glueing, sanding and painting. Wargaming is my excuse. If I were interested in modern, rather than ancient, history I would probably be modelling trains rather than chariots. Recently I have spent almost no time making and painting combatants or military structures and lots of time painting and modelling civilian structurea and their occupants. I certainly don’t feel forced to push models around a table, although it has happened once or twice, and I find it enjoyable. Built and painted stuff is widely availiable, so I don’t understand why you should feel forced to paint and model.

One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

[Mike]

Geof Downton wrote:

I am primarily a modeller

Any new 15mm biblical stuff in the works?

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

Poor eyesight and shaky hands?…Try an optivisor or similar binocular loupes,  paint moderns, or “weather” your little chaps with lots muddy browns so they look like they have been on campaign.  Blocky or “impressionist” styles or 6mm can be done with minimal skill.

Mistakes don’t show up at 18”.  Don’t sweat it.  The fact that I can’t cook at the same level as a 2 star michelin chef doesn’t mean I can’t fry up a tasty egg sandwich.  You’ll get a lot of satisfaction knowing it was your sweat that put pigment on those figs in your army. Don’t begrudge it. Even worst paint job is still preferable to unpainted figures.  No one will begrudge you if your painting is done with spray paint with some blobby dabs on the faces.

Embrace the challenge.  Enjoy the hobby, (and never pass up the opportunity to do something that allows you to buy new tools.) You might even surprise yourself.

Mick Hayman
Margate and New Orleans

[MustPlayThat]

playing with unpainted models is a good idea. but I want to be able to buy a coloured set of models cheap, instead of employing an artist or waiting for post that are not companies. there should be a path to do the hobby from a shop.

I have a 3D printed model that has 4 colours, I looked into it and there are multicoloured 3D printers, now you could 3D print some good stuff with 4 colours if the models were made to use the 4 colours, I think this is a good idea for a business, im sure lots of wargamers would like a coloured army new, and terrain etc… the problem is the model creator has to support the 4 colours.

I enjoy the hobby as is, but would love vast choice of coloured items.

[A man without minis]

It IS optional.

I feel the same way as the original poster about modeling and painting. So much so that I (mostly) abandoned miniatures in favor of homemade counters.

Here are some examples:

• Top down
• Side view

[Geof Downton]

Apologies to gamegonegood for the minor hijack!

Mike wrote:

Any new 15mm biblical stuff in the works?

Oh yes! A  Philistine temple, and a port nearly complete. I’ll post the temple later today.

One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

[Tony Hughes]

Even crudely painted figures would come expensive compared to buying unpainted & painting them yourself so I doubt that there is a market for that beyond what already exists.

A great deal depends on what quality you consider is needed to make a figure look acceptable to a large enough market for it to be commercially viable.

Look at the recent increase in the plastic ranges and you will see a much greater availability of hard(ish) plastics in a range of scales/sizes that was around even 10 years ago BUT the scope of sizes and of different periods and armies with each period is still a tiny fraction of that offered in metal. This clearly shows that what would seem to be a no-brainer is still only limited to popular periods and armies – lesser interest makes rarer stuff non-viable.

The same would be true of painted figures, the vast range of possibilities makes it a very risky investment and, while 3D printing may offer some potential, it still isn’t likely to be commercially viable.

 

 

[willz]

“I love the smell of glue in the morning” 😁

[McKinstry]

I find the painting and modelling a very satisfying part of the hobby. I may game for 4-6 hours every week or two but I paint, base or build terrain at least every other day. Just for me, but if there wasn’t the tangible painting/crafting part of the hobby, I wouldn’t do it as I can turn on the computer and play any historical game period I desire at virtually any level from skirmish to strategic.

The tree of Life is self pruning.

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

MustPlayThat wrote:

playing with unpainted models is a good idea. but I want to be able to buy a coloured set of models cheap, instead of employing an artist or waiting for post that are not companies. there should be a path to do the hobby from a shop. I have a 3D printed model that has 4 colours, I looked into it and there are multicoloured 3D printers, now you could 3D print some good stuff with 4 colours if the models were made to use the 4 colours, I think this is a good idea for a business, im sure lots of wargamers would like a coloured army new, and terrain etc… the problem is the model creator has to support the 4 colours. I enjoy the hobby as is, but would love vast choice of coloured items.

 

I think most game shops offer painting services (hey Joe, ya got time to do a regiment of hussars?).

Figures that are cheap, well done in full color, or  3D printed, at the moment technology seems to only offer two of the three. You pick which.   I think a can of spray paint is your particular best option.

Mick Hayman
Margate and New Orleans

[Mike]

Slap Chop may be the answer?

[MartinR]

Noone is forcing anyone to do anything, it is a hobby not a job. If you have money, you can buy pre paints, pay other people to paint them or buy second hand.

Personally I’d rather play with counters or paper figures than unpainted figures. Nice colour prints can look better than badly painted (or, shudder), unpainted figures. Plenty of downloadable or purchasable stuff in the paper figure space.

I started as a modeller though, wargaming was just something to do with the figures and vehicles. I like modelling, I find it rewarding and relaxing. Nothing so satisfying as closing the lid on another box of painted figures.

 

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

[Andrew Beasley]

Not sure about the ‘no one is forcing you’ TBH as I think there is a large social / peer pressure to field painted figures and negative comments abound when ‘naked’ figures are used on the table.

A lot of clubs I went to did not allow unpainted figures (just undercoat did not count) – a bit of a problem with some of the soft plastic space craft we used – paint flaked off every move (PVA did not help).

Some shows will not allow you to have unpainted figures on display and tournaments normally lay down rules for painting standards and basing.

GW are very strict even with model make up though some of the ‘push fit’ kits simplify builds.

I’m happier to see figures such as Marks Little Soldiers (less than 10 colours inc bases), pre-printed cardboard, two colour sprue (Warlord ACW being great for this) and even blocks with minimal colours showing up on some tables rather than highly detailed painted figures.

Only though, these are often limited in scope and vary rarely make it to the boards…

[irishserb]

I think the painting and modeling came about as part of the hobby out of necessity.  In a time when there was almost nothing available, as “the hobby” basically didn’t exist, if you wanted to play, you had to paint and build to some extent.

The broad market of unpainted figs is simply a result of how the hobby evolved into being.  Since the time of Lionel Tarr making his own plaster tanks, things have evolved quite a bit, but I think that there is simply not a large enough (or large enough perceived) marketplace to justify the risk of investment into providing a broad selection of pre-painted models.

My expectations regarding the quality of figure painting is probably lower than at least half of all miniatures gamers, yet still notably higher than most of the prepainted figures that I’ve seen. Additionally, the extra cost of prepainted figs to a standard that I would want, would have reduced the size of my collection by somewhere between 67 and 85%.  A trade off that I would not want to make, especially as I enjoy sculpting, modeling, and scratch-building every bit as much as playing.

My experience is that the majority of gamers that I have regularly gamed with over the years fall into a group that enjoy or at least can tolerate the painting and/or building side of the hobby, with most getting into the hobby at least partially because of their creative/artisitic interests.

I think that you simply have the misfortune of being in a minority of gamers that appreciate and enjoying gaming miniature, but not the production of the miniatures.  Given that the collective hobby is very niche, most potential manufacturers don’t appear to find enough market place to appeal to your interests.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find that there are actually enough people to support such a format, building pre-painted miniature gaming armies, the problem is that it would probably take decades to find and evelop that marketplace, as the path to pre-paint miniatures gaming will certainly be different from what has happened over the last 70 years.

Andrew Beasley, On a side note, the last Origins game convention that I attended (8000+ attendees) had GW tournaments, where some players not only had unpainted models in their armies, but also unassembled figures.  That is, they had space marines with torsos glued to bare bases, and little piles of parts that included the arms and weapons that they were moving around next to the armless marines.  I was shocked at seeing this, given the rules that GW imposes.  Not sure if it was a one off thing by the overseer of the tournament, or something that happened as a result of beng distant enough from the “homeworld” to get away with it.  But there they were, little piles of space marines.

 

 

 

[Sane Max]

I think the OP is starting from the wrong point. Painting and modelling is an aspect of the Hobby if you like. There are people out there who buy stuff and never take it out of the box. There are people who slap a few inks on their figures. there ARE people who play with UPs because they just want to play and the other stuff doesn’t appeal. The Hobby is ALL optional.

I would suggest you go with the paper soldiers. If I had fewer armies that’s how I would go, I think they look fun. and if someone tells you you are wrong, tell them to go frog themselves – it’s your hobby, not theirs.

[OotKust]

IMO, the OP is under the gun for the ‘moral’ consideration in the hobby that you buy, paint, model scenery and then play games.

True it is not a contractual obligation- its just how the hobby has progressed. And as he wrote about railroad/ways modelling, well I’m qualified there because I’ve had feet in both camps. And the modelling of one does serve the other. I largely gave up gaming for 20 years- but spent a full decade of that doing scenery on a friends large N Scale layout that before hand had been built, but was almost devoid of ‘nature’ of any kind.

The owners’ desire for it wasn’t absent- he just didn’t have the skills or drive to do so. Technical and materials was hs thing. I stepped up and led an improvement in quality and operations of the layout (multi-room around the walls basement one).

So much so that the materials, scenics and terrain are largely compatible with equal effect. Some people WANT an aestethically pleasing view, others don’t care. Examples given above of that.

I prefer somewhat realistic looking scenes- so I am a Turner and not a Picasso- neither in practise nor design- I’m not happy with 1960’s bare bases or miniscule trees etc. on models. I have never liked ‘toy soldiers’ that others drool over.

Some people are and thats their privilege to do so, whether by design or cost is irrelevant. But I don’t impose my standards on anyone else or expect them to meet mine. And while I’ve known enough wealthy gamers to invest in painted figures, they largely treated them like any other commodity after a few years and switch to something else.

-d

Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!

[MustPlayThat]

just saying, if there going to 3D print, why dont they do multicolour

[Mike]

MustPlayThat wrote:

just saying, if there going to 3D print, why dont they do multicolour

PLA/FDM is not much cop for wargames models, resin is what you want to use and that is single colour.

[Guy Farrish]

An acquaintance of mine (not a producer or professional painter of wargame figures) suggested recently that he believed computing (more his field) and robotics would allow cheap machine painting of figures to be a realistic proposition within a short time if someone put sufficient money and energy into development. He believes most of the tech exists and just needs to be fused for this purpose.

I wonder if that is not a more viable solution to your problem than 3d printing?

(good luck with Aurore using pre coloured filaments!)

[MustPlayThat]

Mike wrote:

gamegonegood wrote:

just saying, if there going to 3D print, why dont they do multicolour

PLA/FDM is not much cop for wargames models, resin is what you want to use and that is single colour.

if there not much cop, print some more when they break 🙂

[MustPlayThat]

Guy Farrish wrote:

An acquaintance of mine (not a producer or professional painter of wargame figures) suggested recently that he believed computing (more his field) and robotics would allow cheap machine painting of figures to be a realistic proposition within a short time if someone put sufficient money and energy into development. He believes most of the tech exists and just needs to be fused for this purpose. I wonder if that is not a more viable solution to your problem than 3d printing? (good luck with Aurore using pre coloured filaments!)

i would love timpo swappets at 20mm …..

[MustPlayThat]

in fact it is possible now, the sprue are made to encompass a full model and all its bits, but what if we do a model ford conveyer on a sprue by making sprues of a single piece in a colour, and another sprue of a second piece of a diferrent colour and so on, you may need 10 sprues to make a single model, but you could have 30 figs of one kind on thoses 10 sprues in diff colours. i think this is why the epic warlord ACW figs are good, but they need to do more colored sprues for a better effect, they just did the stand green and blue and grey, but what if the blue and grey were chopped in half and you had the leys a slightly diff blue and grey

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

Guy Farrish wrote:

An acquaintance of mine (not a producer or professional painter of wargame figures) suggested recently that he believed computing (more his field) and robotics would allow cheap machine painting of figures to be a realistic proposition within a short time if someone put sufficient money and energy into development. He believes most of the tech exists and just needs to be fused for this purpose. I wonder if that is not a more viable solution to your problem than 3d printing? (good luck with Aurore using pre coloured filaments!)

 

I hope it never gets to this.  It’s bad enough that robotics and AI are getting rid of tasks that provide many people with real livings—all in the name of “time saving” so that people might be free to devote more time to hobbies and art. Now, automation is going to take even that away.

Mick Hayman
Margate and New Orleans

[Usagitsuki]

Next week, Noch wil be releasing coloured 3D printed figures. They are astonishingly good (1/220 scale….):

https://www.noch.com/construction-workers/44501/

The technology to print in colour is already there. As a professional figure painter myself, I’m hoping it will take a while to come to miniature wargaming:
https://t.co/ck3Pvts7dM

 

Sengoku 'blog: https://tenkafubu608971038.wordpress.com

[Mike]

Interesting, still not 100% sure how it works.
It mixes various resins to get the colour?
If so, does that mean the resin vat is constantly drained, cleaned and refilled when it prints a new colour?

[Usagitsuki]

I’ve no idea I’m afraid. I don’t even know how ‘normal’ 3D printing works 🙂

 

Sengoku 'blog: https://tenkafubu608971038.wordpress.com

[Sane Max]

Mike wrote:

Interesting, still not 100% sure how it works.
It mixes various resins to get the colour?
If so, does that mean the resin vat is constantly drained, cleaned and refilled when it prints a new colour?

“Replace Cyan 6159 oh, and Magenta…. and the Varnish while you are at it, human”

Whee – a new fun hobby – like trying to get a normal printer to work reliably but in 3d 🙂

I will stick to doing it myself.

[Not Connard Sage]

MustPlayThat wrote:

Mike wrote:

gamegonegood wrote:

just saying, if there going to 3D print, why dont they do multicolour

PLA/FDM is not much cop for wargames models, resin is what you want to use and that is single colour.

if there not much cop, print some more when they break 🙂

It’s not fragility that’s the issue, PLA/FDM isn’t great for detail. Unless you spend ridiculous amounts of money…

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[MustPlayThat]

Mike wrote:

Interesting, still not 100% sure how it works. It mixes various resins to get the colour? If so, does that mean the resin vat is constantly drained, cleaned and refilled when it prints a new colour?

your thinking of liquid 3D printing maybe, the printer i had had a spool of coloured wire that melts as its applied, the multicoloured has many diff coloured spools, and they put coloured plastic on areas, but the model when its designed has to include colour info with it.

[MustPlayThat]

Usagitsuki wrote:

Next week, Noch wil be releasing coloured 3D printed figures. They are astonishingly good (1/220 scale….): https://www.noch.com/construction-workers/44501/ The technology to print in colour is already there. As a professional figure painter myself, I’m hoping it will take a while to come to miniature wargaming: https://t.co/ck3Pvts7dM

wow I now want to wargame a building site, but they do look good. as you are an artest maybe you could digitaly paint , i know its not the same but painting uniforms etc may be satifying

fragility dosnt matter if you can just keep printing them

[Tony Hughes]

These are z-scale (which is about 8mm in wargaming terms) and cost over £2 a figure. Hardly much of a threat to ‘pro’ painters.

I suppose the technology is in its early stages but how many small producers are likely to take the risk of buying high cost equipment if they need to charge that kind of money ?

 

[MustPlayThat]

Tony Hughes wrote:

These are z-scale (which is about 8mm in wargaming terms) and cost over £2 a figure. Hardly much of a threat to ‘pro’ painters. I suppose the technology is in its early stages but how many small producers are likely to take the risk of buying high cost equipment if they need to charge that kind of money ?

there are many bussiness models, eg a company can rent, or commission a bigger company to print etc…  and you only need to make a 5 man box and then sell 50 boxes as an army

[Usagitsuki]

They also do N gauge at the same price. I’m going to charge you about that price for 10mm painted, or more for 15mm. And I’m not painting checked shirts at that quality at that scale. What will it look like in 5 or 10 years? Who knows. Maybe Warlord will be offering ready-coloured epic strips at better quality (or let’s say ‘with more precision’) than anything I can paint.

To return to the OP, I know and have known lots of people who hate painting figures but want to play the games. Colour printed figures would at least let those people engage with the hobby more, but I think we’re still a fair way off seeing that technology permeate into historical wargaming at least. Though I could be wrong……

Sengoku 'blog: https://tenkafubu608971038.wordpress.com

[Paint it Pink]

MustPlayThat wrote:

[snip]I know people really enjoy modeling, but it should be optional NOT nessasary[sic].

You asked, why is modeling and painting part of the hobby?

It isn’t, unless you want to do miniature tabletop wargaming and are prepared to limit yourself to those games that have pre-painted and assembled models. For example, Star Wars X-wing.

For historical wargames, you can probably source WW2 models in diecast form, and cheap 54mm painted toy soldiers too.

So, the ‘why’ here is more about why in my chosen period and scale do I have to deal with making and painting an army?

The answer is, the period and scale you want to play does not have commercial support to support pre-painted models.

Bottom line, despite what you think, historical wargaming is a niche hobby.

One is good, more is better
http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/
http://ashleyrpollard.blogspot.co.uk/

[Mike Headden]

What constitutes “necessary” when indulging in a spot of wargaming is entirely between you and your opponent unless you are taking part in a tournament or store setting where the location owners also get a say.

As I have mentioned many times before, I played a perfectly good intro game of Chain of Command using Space Marines, Elder and a Kellog’s mini-pack with a straw pushed in the front and PzIV/70 scrawled in sharpie on the top.  The Wargaming Thought Police did not kick in the front door and drag us off, never to be seen again.

Oi! Who said,”What a shame!” 🙂

If, as I have to do increasingly often these days, you play solo and at home then you have almost unlimited options. As I have also mentioned  more than once, if you are playing solo, and your opponent disagrees with you, you have bigger problems than with wargaming! 🙂

There is no wrong way to”play toy soldiers.” It is at base a pleasant way to spend a little of the time between our arrival and our inevitable shuffling off of this mortal coil. Do what you do your way and leave others to do it theirs.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike]

[Author]

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