Forum Replies Created
18/08/2020 at 11:30 in reply to: Leather Lorica Segmentata – historical or Hollywood? #142490
Thanks for the encouragement on the “value” Hollywood based research which, of course, I have used in my Greek forces that includes Ray Harryhausen based Jason and his Argonauts.
BTW Geoff, where did you get the Queen of Sheba set of figures? They are exactly what I need for one of my Hyborian characters.18/07/2020 at 16:59 in reply to: Grandad (on his own) – Dedburgh Abbey Research Centre #140604
How did I miss this? Great work!
Thanks. There will be another installment soon because the boys are able to visit tomorrow and want a zombie game.
Also late into this. In our world (Morval Earth) magic is relatively common but “battle magic” is rare. We have a number of magicians each of whom is aligned to a particular deity and has a list of spells that suit that deity. So quite often the magician is of no great use on the battlefield with combat spells but may have a morale, healing or affect the battle indirectly by creating mist, rain or by cloud rolling. In some games the most powerful wizards spend their magic points trying to affect the level of darkness so that one side or the other gains an advantage.
We are heavily influenced by Middle Earth and Hyboria where great magic is more slow and elemental and low level magic is mostly about health (healing, easing pain), wealth (bumper crops, blight crops), weather (rain making, cloud rolling, mist) and so on. Battle winning magic is rare though we do have tactical battle magic (terror beams, blinding flashes, missile deflection).
So magic has a place in most of our actions and battles but it is seldom decisive.
Thanks, something similar to the labarum would fit the bill.
I have often wondered about this, there doesn’t seem to be much idea of what an Early Imperial Roman army would have had as a standard. My conclusion was ‘why would they even need one?’ The Standards were Rally Points and Sacred objects for the formations involved. Would a Legate need one? He would either be fighting as part of a Legion if he was a Caesar or Marius type, or at the back watching his Legion carry out his plan while eating Aardvark toes on toast if he was more of a Lucius Licinnius Lucullus or a Pompeius kinda guy. If you feel the urge, a Vexillum would do no harm, would not look out of place. If your lads are wearing Banded Mail, there will have been no consulars around with Lictors, Augustus made damn sure of that 🙂
I am fairly sure that the commander would mark his presence on the battlefield so that he made his presence known to the Legion commanders. Caesar at Pharsalus, for example, positioned himself behind the right (open) flank of his legions. This was where he decided that the critical ground lay and had concealed a reserve force to counter Pompey’s expected flanking cavalry attack. He wanted to send the concealed troops into action on his command at the critical moment.
My legionaries are the Warlord games plastics wearing lorica segmentata plate armour.
Thanks, but I am thinking of campaigns like the Cantabrian War (and many others) where 8 Roman legions plus Auxiliaries were deployed and the overall commander marked his HQ. I know each Legion had the Aquila etc. Those are not the ones I am thinking of but (I found the reference) the type mentioned by Cassius Dio (Roman History, III, xl, 18) “But one of the large flags, that resemble sails, with purple letters upon them to distinguish the army and its commander in chief, was overturned … in a violent wind. Crassus had the others of equal length cut down so they might be shorter and steadier to carry”30/06/2020 at 11:51 in reply to: Refurbished – Old School 25mm Garrison Sword and Sorcery #139203
Many thanks for the link and email sent. We’ll see what happens29/06/2020 at 21:08 in reply to: Refurbished – Old School 25mm Garrison Sword and Sorcery #139157
Amazing collection, I remember seeing them years ago but never owned any.
Thanks for the kind words. I regret never buying the archers, cavalry and a commander for the army. I’ll keep searching at bring and buys and on ebay.
Almost always I have raised forces that fight each other starting way back in the 1960s with Airfix British and Germans and since then many other periods and campaigns. Since I started with these they have remained my main interest even though they seldom take to the table now. I start a “new” collection when I become particularly interested the history of a campaign and I always built opposing forces. Only once did I raise a one sided collection – Belisarian Byzantines, I was studying the campaign and on impulse bought a small army. When we had kids they played GW fantasy and I bought and painted armies for them – I have just sold them off as I needed the space. Now we have grandchildren and I am building “armies” that they are interested in – zombies v survivors, Bolt Action British v Germans and Russians v Germans in 28mm. My collecting is focussed on the Dark Ages Britain and refurbishing my old school fantasy figures.
This has been useful in the current situation as I have everything I need to play solo. And these solo games are the motivation to keep my current project of Dark Ages Britain going. Though I am playing zombie games as they are easy to set up and play and because the zombies are “programmed” and governed by random cards every game is a different challenge.
Does anyone know if gibbets were used in the Conan setting?
I did a google search
Conan the Barbarian – Google Books Result
books.google.co.uk › books – Michael A. Stackpole – 2011 – Fiction
“Don’t think I don’t know how to read men, Conan. They’re loyal to me, is the Hornet’s crew, because I plucked every one of them from a gibbet
Conan the Barbarian – Google Books Result
books.google.co.uk › books
Michael A. Stackpole – 2011 – Fiction
“Don’t think I don’t know how to read men, Conan. They’re loyal to me, is the Hornet’s crew, because I plucked every one of them from a gibbet before the …
The Weird Tales of Conan the Barbarian
books.google.co.uk › books
Robert E. Howard – 2016 – Fiction
“You’ll be safe from the Afghulis there—” “Yes, on a Vendhyan gibbet.” “I am Queen of Vendhya,” she reminded him with a touch of her old imperiousness.
Conan The Barbarian – All 20 Books in One Edition: …
books.google.co.uk › books
Robert E. Howard – 2017 – Fiction
Conan felt slow fury swell his heart as he looked silently down and saw the ruffians … whose low-spreading branches were obviously intended to act as a gibbet.
The use of the gibbet beyond sundown of the day that the body is hanged on the tree is forbidden in the Old Testament at Deuteronomy 21:22-23.
Tacitus mentioned that Boudica’s forces gibbeted victims of the massacres at Roman towns or it might have been Cassius Dio (or both?) who mentioned it but it is a long time since I read their works at university in the early 1970s and recent archaeology may have refuted their accounts.
So if you want to have a victim gibbeted then I see no reason why not.30/04/2020 at 15:32 in reply to: The correct translation of marins de la Garde impériale #135635
This might help (or not) https://blundersonthedanube.blogspot.com/2015/05/marins-de-la-garde-imperiale.html
Superb and original. Um, and I see they seem to live in giant haggis mounds, is it a part of the nightmare?
They are not Haggis mounds. As everyone knows the wild haggis lives on the mountains and has its legs shorter on one side than the other to facilitate running around mountains see http://www.robertburns.org.uk/Assets/Documents/haggisarticle.pdf
They are endangered by tourists dogs
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I am doubtful about skirmishers really deployed by twos at a large distance from others, before it became really useful because of black powder musket fire (from the mid-18th C. onwards). It needs a lot of special training. In previous times I would rather imagine them in a loose order. Also a slinger cannot have much protection from the shields (as a crossbowman would have) as he must do large gestures to use his sling. But I’m not saying you couldn’t send two guys ahead, if the centurion wants to; one watching around and the other shooting.
I would agree that it is unlikely in a battle line but in a patrol operation or skirmish who knows? But then it good to question and think up alternative ways of employing forces as, no doubt, did the ancients.
Our noddy suits were the green ones. Later we had DPM ones.
The only grey ones that I saw in UK service were the charcoal liners worn by aircrew under their flying suits. They were not robust enough for wearing when carrying out normal work because they are effectively just the lining of the green or DPM ones and ripped easily.
When I joined in 1970 we had 50’s style Battle Dress blouses to wear on parade with our kilts, gradually replaced by No2 dress Highland Tunics. Most of the time we wore the lined Combat Kit in green with 37 Pattern webbing (at recruits training) then 58 pattern when we joined our units. The green varied in shade depending upon use and washing, the 37 Ptn webbing was blancoed a mid green. In the early to mid 70s we were issued with “Flower Power” DPM. The DPM also faded fairly quickly with use and washing.
Thanks. My own “legion” now has a unit that has 50% slingers.
After I made the figures it struck me that any slinger legionaries actually deployed may well have operated in pairs a bit like skirmishers of later periods. One observing and shooting (scutum slung or on the ground) and one protecting with his shield (or both shields?) and with both soldiers pila. Why I did not think of it before as all through my military training the idea of supports while moving was emphasised.
Sometime I may make another unit of “pairs”.
That’s a really well designed terrain. How long did your son take to model it?
To design the monastery? A while, as I was in Mali on an operational tour and internet was not only slow but limited.
All in all the design was probably about a day, the detailing was the tricky part, i.e. stones, floor, damage parts, windows etc. that was a couple of days off the top of my head. So I would say about a week on and off between work and designing.
That’s a really well designed terrain. How long did your son take to model it?
I have just asked him. I’ll let you know when he answers.
FDM or SLA? How big is the print bed?
Sorry I have no idea what this means as I do not do the 3D printing. My son said on another forum that he uses
“Software is Cura (its free) for slicing and getting the G.Codes for the printer and I am currently using a Prusa I3 Mk3. Really easy to use.”
Looks pretty good, especially the stone pattern, as it doesn’t look like it repeats.
It does repeat but has been designed to look random so that you need to look really closely. I had the card model for years until it fell apart through constant use by the kids.
This one is far more robust but I cannot find some of the figures to play the scenario.
Sounds like a good time! Did the aliens escape from the troops, or do you mean they brought them out with them? Did the aliens invent the infection or are they here to help?
The aliens were taken off by the helo with the troops. You can see them in the midst of the squad in the second last picture. Their fate is at present unknown as the “Men in Tartan” met the helo and took them away. The boys invented the “Men in Tartan” so I’ll need to find figures!
Whether they invented the infection or gave it to our recurring baddie, a chap called Rial Badyin (say it with a Scots accent), to spread is not yet known. Maybe another mission is needed to find out?
I decide on a group of colours suitable to subject, randomly divide the figures into groups, usually mixing poses etc, then I paint a group with all the trousers in a colour, another group with jackets etc. I like to pick out some in brighter civvy colours for example – white t-shirts and/or trainers for example………and so on, mixing things up if they start to look a tad uniform.
Similarly – I select a few colours, usually a theme based on something like “Autumn” (browns, yellows, ochre, reds), “Summer” (greens, browns, orange, red, bright colours), “Winter” (drabs, greys, blues etc), “Water” (pale blues, greens, white etc). Then lay the figures out in ranks. Select a rank at a time paint the trousers of each rank one colour, then select each file and paint the tops, then go diagonally for details or a third colour, and so on varying the starting point.
This way the “warbands”, “gangs” or whatever have a homogeneous look without being uniform.
it’s perfectly acceptable to paint figures and never play with them…
Unpainted figures indicate to me that the person using the using them has a different attitude to the game to me and we are looking for different outcomes, unpainted guy is looking to play a competitive game, while I’m looking to spend a couple of hours having an enjoyable social interaction.
My experience is different. The chap or chapess with the unpainted figures has bought them, built them and wants to play a game with his/her own “army”. He/she is gradually working through his/her models a squad or unit at a time. Fitting in time between work or study. Not letting him/her play puts him off and we lose him/her to the hobby. Unpainted figures do not spoil our social interaction, they increase it as we discuss painting styles and tips, terrain making and baseboards, uniforms and organisations and battles and history alongside (bad) jokes, puns and chatter.
The only models that are painted to the “best of my ability” are display models, often for other people as gifts.
My wargames figures are painted to what I would consider an adequate standard. This is dependent upon the size of the model, what it is to be used for, when I painted it and how much time I have available. So I have all sorts of different “standards” sometimes in the same collection. I have Airfix Combat Group and Germans in Humbrol gloss that was all that was available. Metal and plastic 20mm and 25mm in enamel gloss and matt then later in acrylics as the model shop stocks changed. By far the majority of my 28mm figures are just block painted, recent ones may have a wash and/or highlighting.
I do and have played games where unpainted figures are fielded by my opponent. I make no fuss about it. The objective is to encourage new players and not put them off. Almost all of my opponents who fielded unpainted figures came back with them painted. Not because I insisted but because they wanted to.
I have also played games where my opponent has deployed figures that would grace a museum display. Fortunately he does not mock or refuse to play against my quite basically painted forces.
For me the fun is in setting up challenging games and playing them. The toy soldiers are a means to that end. Others, of course, have a different emphasis and that is perfectly OK.
Our little group uses rules that the “veteran” members wrote many years ago and that have been added to and amended occasionally. So none of us need shiny and expensive rules. I have some of the card covered sets from the 70s and 80s that get used occasionally. Some free sets downloaded from the internet get used as well – particularly Akula’s Zombie Rules which get an outing nearly every time the grandchildren come round for a “Grandad Day”.
The new games I have bought are really board games with figures bought in various sales – Zombicide Black Plague (half price), a couple of sets of Project Z (second hand bought for the figures and extra bit – rules used once), two sets of Mars Attacks in a Black Friday offer etc.
The only one bought at full price was “The Hobbit – Escape from Goblin Town” because grandsons loved it! It is still played.
Really nice! My 3mm army is bigger though… er… larger… er… more units. What I mean to say is that they are small but perfectly formed. I really like those caltrops, by the way. Is there historical evidence for those?
They are not caltrops. Caltrops are much smaller and known to the Romans as tribulus or sometimes as murex ferreus, the latter meaning “jagged iron” (literally “iron jagged thing”). They are representations of “Sudes” (stakes) carried by legionaries to assist in making overnight camps.
We have been playing the same set of “Slim’s Rules” for over 50 years with very few modifications. They were written by Slim (John) Mumford based on the (then) current wargame styles of Featherstone and Bath in particular. We used lots of figures then and still do – Airfix, Garrison and Miniature Figurines 20mm. My original forces were based Airfix Romans, Ancient Britons and converted US Cavalry, Bedouins and Robin Hood sets (the zoo sets provided zebras as mules, war elephants etc). Lots of dice (d6), some manoeuvre until battle joined and, of course, simple and fun.
PM me if you want a copy.
I did not realise these were available. Thanks for showing them. If possible could you post a picture of them both with a figure for size comparison? I have a scenario in mind in which they would be ideal.
The miniatures are silly and the product of people who’ve grown up with self loading weapons.
They may be fanciful in pose but so are the poses of plenty other wargames figures. And the old question of whether your models should be in “campaign dress” or “full dress” or “working dress” or whatever.
You have Romans holding a shield and javelins in one hand so how do they load the stone into the sling? How do they even hold the javelins like that behind the shield given the horizontal grip or were the javelins somehow held with the thumb?
I would agree that carrying a scutum and one or two pila in the left hand would be difficult – read http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.30781.html for an informative discussion how how it may have been done.
The other thing here is that why is the sling being used when the Roman is holding javelins?
To refute the possibility by saying “why have a sling and a javelin” is like refuting that a modern soldier would not carry a pistol or grenades because he has a rifle.
They’d look much better with nothing in the left hand.
Agreed but I think I’d like a bag of slingshot on the left hip. Probably too small to depict a slingshot in the left hand.
I have spent some time in past few days researching this topic (not thoroughly or deeply I admit) – Vegetius says that all Legionaries were trained to use the sling. Polybius says the legionaries carried two pila Caesar in his De Bello Gallico (book VII, battle fought by Labienus near the Seine) he mentions the use of two and in other places. I am sure that the sling armed legionary could, as I said previously, leave his shield and pila at the rear of his unit, in a cart or with another legionary, he might even, shock horror, have put his shield and pila on the ground to use his sling.
Here we have to consider what the job of a legionary at this time was. Large scale battles where they fight as a Legion in formation using the traditional scutum, gladius, pilum combination were few. Most engagements were small scale throughout the history of the empire. The Legionaries main activities were patrolling, garrisoning, guarding, collecting taxes, preventing raids and acting as an armed police force along the borders. If a century was sent to deal with some 20 bandits in Germania Superior the scutum and a pilum was probably not as much use as in the battle line so it makes perfect sense to have some (most?) of the legionaries armed with slings (with or without pila). These chaps might even be given a flat “barbarian” shield explaining some depictions of Early Imperial legionaries with flat shields. The small scale of the usual fighting they had to do against Germanic and Celtic raiding parties, against rebels, in preemptive strikes across the borders. on punitive expeditions probably meant that the equipment carried varied according to the mission – just as with modern soldiers. Unfortunately the ancient chroniclers are not consistent in their terminology which does make things difficult for us. Add to that we only have a very few original sources and it is easy to become confused.
During the Republican period the Antesignani (=in front of the Signa, i.e. bands fighting in loose formation in front of the heavy infantry) the velites were sometimes reinforced by some of the Hastati armed with javelins. So a drill for doing this probably existed.
Anyway, I’m not going to use those particular figures. The games we play are generally of the more common low intensity type rather than pitched battles. So I’m going to convert about 10 plastic ones that came with the wargames magazine and probably give them shields slung on their backs as they would on the march. Though I’m fairly sure that the shields would be dropped off so they did not get in the way.
I only saved one topic discussion https://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/showthread.php?tid=22532
Also from another respondent
It will be perfect for skirmish games, as that’s largely how it was used.
Vegetius seems to imply that the sling was used as the projectile was almost impossible to dodge in a skirmish compared to an arrow or a thrown spear. They were trained to be pretty accurate and had serious stopping power…
Roman slingers would have exacted a heavy toll. Recent experiments conducted in Germany showed that a 50-gram Roman bullet hurled by a trained slinger has only slightly less stopping power than a .44 magnum cartridge fired from a handgun. Other tests revealed that a trained slinger could hit a target smaller than a human being from 130 yards away.
They also played a role as a psychological weapon with examples found with drilled holes in the lead bullets to produce a wailing sound when fired, and also graffiti carved into them, sometimes just to note the unit commander or formation, a devotion to a god, or something less subtle like
“Attack Octavian’s arsehole”… Roman Legionaries seemed to have liked a selection of indecent comments on their lead bullets.
That´s quite an argument FOR slingers in this periond. Quite a percentage of the troops at this time came from regions using the sling frequently (only think of the Germanic people) and it´s quite possible that they adopted some of their tactics.
Interestingly I was referred to a couple of archaeological papers on this subject on another forum. From these it appears Roman slingers used 3 different types of sling (each for a different range band – one in hand, one around waist and one around head) and several different types of lead slingshot. What the academics do not say is whether they were used by legionaries or auxiliaries. They do say that the “finds” are mainly up to the Augustan/Trajanic armies then disappear and return later on (Vegetius 5th Century). The caveat is, of course, that these papers are based on what has been found in a particular camp/battlefield and represent a snapshot. I am also aware that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Another interesting thing is that cavalry were also trained in the use of the sling. Though no mention to mounted slingers in combat is made.
Re-enator slingers have also been in touch and they say that it does not take a lot of space or training to use a sling against a massed target at relatively short range (say 30-40 metres).
So there is at least tenuous evidence that legionaries used the sling, probably on patrols/ambushes, in defending or attacking fortifications.
Based on this and having the parts I will make some.
Thanks, I had not realised that there was any source, though Vegetius was writing in the early 5th Century. The sling was used for hunting by the common folk so not unreasonable to assume that Legionaries may well use it to add some meat or fowl to the cooking pot. As you say sieges or troops manning barricades/defence works against an enemy. I may as well add a few to my collection since I have the bits.
Depends what I am doing. Most of my figures are what we call 20mm mainly because I started in the 1960s with Airfix and still use the Infantry Combat Group against German Infantry series 1 on occasion. So 20mm for WW2, AWI, ACW, Ancients etc. 28mm for fantasy, Dark Ages, pulp, Darkest Africa and the grandchildren inspired Mars Attacks, Zombies, Lord of the Rings.
The scales (sizes) are well represented on the web though some of the “20mm periods” less so (AWI and ACW in particular)
my 1/1200 WW2 naval seems to be a rarity.
Interesting- what figures are they?
They are Zvezda Cursed Legion 28mm plastic figures. Each legionary comes as upper torso, lower torso & legs, 2 feet, 2 arms, 2 arms, head, shield, sword, dagger and some have a pilum = 11 to 13 parts!!! They are quite fragile as a result. You get 28 in the box 4 archers, 4 auxiliaries, Legate, Centurion, Cornicern, Signifer, 12 legionaries.
If you can find one on ebay Roco minitanks 1/87 German Flak Sdkfz 7 and SWS halftrack had a 3.7cm gun mount that would do you. It also came with a Flakvierling 2cm Flak as well. I used the spare guns to make 1/76 2cm guns for my Panzer Grenadiers. You might be lucky and some kind soul may have a spare in their bits box. One of the 2cm guns might do as well. I am sure that I used all mine but will have a look a the weekend.
The gun on the right
Or even a cut down larger scale 50 cal HMG?
I use PlastiKote spray varnish and primers. They cover well and have a soft spray that does not blast plastic figures all over the place. It is sold locally by Hobbycraft, B&M and The Range
I scratch build a lot of terrain items and also all sorts of vehicles, weapons, barricades and suchlike. Many of the vehicles and weapons may fall actually be conversions as they use a kit or model as the basis. When I started way back in the 1960s we had to make a lot of equipment that Airfix, Lesney and Roco Minitanks did not produce. The “Military Modelling” articles in Airfix Magazine were godsends for our armies.
Thanks, he is now deployed on an operational tour and is working up new buildings for printing on his return next year.
I was at Claymore yesterday and the “Bring and Buy” table seemed to be a wargames rules review in its own right. A few of the older rule books were there but lots of different sets of the newer “glossy” picture book style. Maybe people who bought them and found them wanting?
Within the past 12 months:
28mm – Dark Ages, Greek myths, zombies, Romans v Celts, Fantasy (Morval Earth, The Hobbit), Victorian Gothic, WW2, Lost World
20mm – WW2
Played but own only a Command Group – Waterloo (largest wargame 22,000 figures)