[madman]

Martin

Solo gaming is mostly a pass for me, made covid lockdowns hell, as my usual opponent is incompetent and a cheat. I can’t be even handed when I have to play 2 sides of a game. I found Battlespace which has a great card driven AI and loved it until I had real bodies facing me at the table.

Rod

GDW is bad, seriously? Me thinks you mean the Games Workshop (GW) evil empire of Kult worshipers.

[madman]

So what is so good about Starmada? How does it do movement, combat, design your own? Miniatures agnostic, single ship actions, fleets, how many max per player for a couple hour game?

[madman]

Sorry I should do what I ask of others.

Star Fleet Battles (SFB)=detailed (read involved) combat with a variety of weapons which varies by race, procedure and game characteristics. Detailed damage resolution wrt locations armour and shields means very slow damage accumulation. But effects when things are hit means some things can be used or not. Combat similar to Battletech if you are familiar with that. Sort of like Squad Leader for amount of stuff out there.

StarFire (SF)=very simple combat results. Roll for damage and depending on weapon type. Damage “chart” per ship is a single line of systems. Cross them off from left to right and as crossed off they, and their effects, are lost. Some weapons bypass or are stopped by certain systems. Lots of design your own and campaign support although I just wanted a base game to learn. Simple version free on wargamevault. Movement is simple X hexes, to turn certain sizes have to move Y hexes forward before making a 60 degree turn.

Mayday=very elegant movement. You take you previous turn’s position and past position to determine your position next turn. Then move that future position based on the thrust of your ship. Combat is Traveller’s 2D6 with mods for various things including running computer programs and skills of crew (which can be your characters). Missiles and more which “fly” like ships until they impact their targets. Sounds complex but plays a lot better than we feared.

[madman]

Thomason

You liked Babylon 5 best why?

Fleet actions or small/single ships?

Good combat/damage results/movement/other?

Similar for other rules you liked please.

Thank you in advance.

 

[madman]

SLAG=? Please.

[madman]

Since covid eased here in Canada I have been playing my but off. Haven’t gamed this much since the late ’80s. And now that I am retired that opens up on line during the day.

So 15mm Ambush Alley transitioning to Force on Force. Also Battlespace for smaller games and solo or co-op. Lots of painting done, but much more collecting.

1/300 Canvas Eagles which has become a hit with the locals.

Just starting the learning curve of Advanced Squad Leader and am starting with the Starter Kits (#1 of course).

Then, in addition to numerous board games (been converting the local Euro gamers to minis and board wargames) Cuba Libre, Wilderness War, Zurmat, Andean Abyss, Undaunted, Mayday, StarFire, Crusade and Revolution, Here I Stand, Land and Freedom, Terraforming Mars (Euro I know but lots of fun), and maybe a dozen more titles I do not own but have played.

[madman]

BFG, I don’t care for the entire GW “we can’t design them as Nazis so lets use Romans and lots of skulls” appeal to 12 year old’s mentality. I played a few games of SFB back in the day but found it tedious and haven’t tried it lately. I did try BattleTech which is basically SFB on the ground play wise and found it lacking. I may try it again, only since I have quite a few ships. I had fond memories of Star Fire as it used a simple and unique method of assessing combat damage but found the movement system, no inertia in space, a let down. I used to love the inertia based vector movement of Mayday a real hit but the Traveller based combat system was a little daunting. This was my past experience.

Back into the hobby almost a decade ago and some buddies and myself gave StarFire and Mayday a go again. StarFire as I remembered the combat system and Mayday as I remembered the movement system and we were playing Traveller so integrating Mayday seemed appropriate. Well SF did fall on it’s face but we really enjoyed Mayday and ended up playing it a few times. Some people claim the 2D vector movement is not “true 3D” but it takes at least 4 ships to make 3D even appropriate. And, although 3D can be done, the movement system is very adequate as is. As for the combat system we found it pretty quick and no where near as onerous a task feared. So it is my suggestion, even if 46 years old. Great for small ships and a couple per side. I wouldn’t use it for fleet battles.

I have a copy, somewhere, of Full Thrust and would appreciate a review and “how it works, mechanics wise” discussion. I also have Star War 2250 which was in the Star Guard universe, but again didn’t play it either. So sorry, nothing recent but if you can live with the limitations these older games are still relevant. Curious what rules/games you played.

[madman]

Flying radio controlled model airplanes. Three of them are WWI types.

[madman]

Started in ’73 with micro armour and Tractics. Out of the hobby from the mid ’90s until almost a decade ago now and my copy of Tractics was returned a few years ago after being lent to a fellow gamer in the early ’90s. Now I prefer my WWII games infantry centric so dug it out to read and frankly the infantry rules suck. Got the new edition a couple years ago but yet to bring it to the table.

First wargame was ’74 and the original Battleline version of Wooden Ships & Iron Men. Played it a couple years ago and it still rocks. Played a more recent title of age of sail and it seemed no great improvement so…

[madman]

Oh, on another tack. Since covid has tapered off (at least in our minds) getting together with others has drastically increased over the last couple years. I am literally gaming 3 to 4 days a week. That makes it much more appealing to keep collecting, buying and occasionally painting when there is a reason for it.

[madman]

Rod +1

Having said that my other hobby is radio controlled airplanes, specifically WWI. A year ago I inventoried my collection of unbuilt kits, not plans, not the cord of balsa, just kits. I stopped at 20. It takes me about 3 years to build a plane, 1 to build, 1 to debug and get it flying well and 1 to then detail it out. I am 64 and know I do not have 60 years left. So I will be keeping a few but found homes for almost all the rest. My game and miniature collection (including the lead and plastic mountain of shame) is similar but I have yet to address that. Too many shiny things out there! Go for it.

[madman]

What Guy said +1, “All older weapons systems are fit only for recycling into the new” or “Mindless drones (pun not intended) all over the world are reassessing all their tactics, doctrines and purchasing directions”. Just like Canada does every election cycle so no jets get bought forever and our airforce will be as well stocked as New Zealand’s.

[madman]

Rod

Bringing a slightly dead topic back to life but I really like your comments. Are you still gaming and if so where? I am about an hour north of Toronto but get to Ottawa for CanGames.

[madman]

Angel Barracks wrote:

How long do people live in your setting?

I figure typical farmers, workers, etc. 30 to 50 years. Bureaucrats, bankers basically anyone not wearing themselves out would be 50 to 70 years. Of course in any population this is median and some would have short lives, accidents, disease or natural disasters, while others would grow old and be revered for their knowledge.

Sorry for the interruption but life.

[madman]

After the adventure I had collected and worked up enough on Hazel that I liked the feel of it. It is only capable of manufacturing 1910s to 1930s technology goods. It has a very basic dirtside starport serviced by a smallish town of partially local workers, imperial citizens from other worlds who were required by their jobs to be there and a few people “just passing though” but for whatever reason their stay has been extended.

I thought of a few possible reasons why the rebellion may have occurred but a general feel made clear in the adventure stayed in the back of my mind and provided the impetus; Hazel was reportedly bereft of natural resources, especially mineral, but efforts to verify that fact were hampered by local laws and customs. Also it was adjacent to a major planet, the subsector capital, so I took the idea that, there may be more resources but have been kept from being found, and ran with it. I had the world settled long ago by a group of refugees who took to the hardscrabble life on the planet as a challenge. It was the only place they could call home so they did their best, making it productive, but just barely. Small amounts of surplus agricultural products would be traded with the neighboring worlds for needed tools and equipment to make farming easier and open up new areas. About a thousand years later a small influx of settlers from the nearby worlds, especially the sub sector capital, helped boost the population. These new settlers had to adapt to the hardscrabble lifestyle. Many did and slowly, and in limited ways, prospered, to a limited extent, and integrated well into the communities. A lot didn’t, thinking they were going to find the streets paved with gold or other riches just there for the taking or exploiting. They quickly gave up and passed on. Those that stayed brought skills, knowledge and wealth which allowed them to raise up the world and start some limited manufacturing. They were welcomed by the initial settlers as having the same attitudes as they had and willing to “roll their sleeves up” and pitch in. About a couple hundred years ago another influx of better off settlers came to Hazel. Like the last wave they were a very mixed bunch. But many (too many?) of the well financed ones found ways to insinuate themselves into the world, often knowing how to live off the work of others while creating little or no value to the planet. The original settlers and the first wave of immigrants soon grew to resent these interlopers. But not before they managed to acquire tracts of prime farmland, gain control over much of the financial institutions and insinuate themselves into the limited political life of the planet.

The adventure takes place about a decade after the start of the rebellion. So for the first couple miniatures games I set them right near, one before actually, the start of the rebellion. We played these scenarios using Stargrunt II rules as I liked the variable die type to account for quality of the forces. I was also enamored of only needing to roll only a few dice and “buckets of dice”. As I was to find out that came with the price of lots of mental maths to determine what type of die needed to be thrown for what combat result as the forces were reduced by casualties.

The first scenario occurred before the rebellion got its start. One descendant of the original settlers joined the Imperial Marines becoming a highly skilled and regarded spec ops trooper. On his return visits home he became more agitated by the detrimental influence the new commers were having on his home world and eventually decided things had to change and since no one else was going to do anything he was going to have to be the one to push. A number of his buddies from the military often came with him on his visits home and realized the inequities had to end. So when they mustered out of the service a number returned to Hazel to see what could be done. A long winded set up for a couple sentence scenario wrap up I know. The powers that be got wind of what was happening and decided to nip this in the bud as it were. Now Hazel has a population of about 7 million but no standing army, just some of the local bureaucrats, service workers (think road crews, watermain workers, etc.), and other government workers without the means to bribe officials, had to provide two weeks of service per year plus a weekend a month in a very rough civil defense force. It’s primary mission, and the only one it ever did, was disaster relief and the occasional crowd control when either a local musical act or an off world celebrity performed or just came to call. The politicians sent a couple of squads of this defense force out to bring this agitator in. Now a couple squads was about all the “forces” had. They often recruited off world retired military individuals to provide leadership and training for the defense force. So this group travelled by boat to a small town, where the trooper and some of his friends were supposed to give a speech, and were dropped off nearby walking into town. There they “confronted” the “unarmed” mobs who had coalesced in the town and proceeded to take the individual into custody. Now you have to remember this is a very laid back world with almost no crime (except by the newcomers, who would guess) and no combat before. When the defense force entered the town it was more like two groups of neighbors (what frankly they all were) joining into a block party. No fighting and the agitator freely surrendered, as it was part of his long term plan to show the original inhabitants that the “powers that be” really had no power and no moral authority. The forces controlled by the agitator were mostly unarmed while some had farming implements and another group (fishermen) had the equivalent of knives and machetes. The militia had bolt action riles and no automatic weapons. The agitators friends had some high tech assault rifles but kept them well hidden and were told not to use them except in self defense. Similarly the leaders hired by the government were also armed with high tech weaponry they brought with them. Not knowing how they would be dealt with they kept theirs close at hand. In the end once the two groups came together no situation developed, much to the annoyance of the people ordering (one snitch accompanied the expedition) the local defense force, who did little to hide the fact that if the agitators were to be injured or killed they would take no action.

The second scenario took place only a couple weeks later in the same, now not so sleepy fishing village. Now the defense force, who were a little better trained but no more trigger happy then before, had word that the agitator’s friends were starting to arm and train the locals. The agitator was due to be released as actually he had done nothing wrong, there were no laws broken (frankly no laws covered this as it was never a thing) and the original settler groups were much more agitated by his detention than apparently anything he did. A sweep to search for and confiscate any weapons was ordered. But again the locals, who did have guns now, and the defense force did little damage to each other before the locals were captured, disarmed and the agitator’s friends fled before they could be detained.

I purposely made these two scenarios very low key wrt combat as well as aggression. The locals all saw each other more as family and neighbors as opposed to opponents and were more likely to start a block party (which happened in the first scenario) than exchange shots.

The agitator was released and made some irritating speeches about freedoms and intimidation which did nothing to calm the newcomers but did put the original settlers on edge.

Enough for now.

[madman]

Angel Barracks wrote:

Would I be correct in thinking that Firefly drew from Traveller and has a similar sort of feel, when you said the name Hazel it instantly made me think of the big ol verse.

The word on the ‘net is Joss Whedon played Traveller in college. He brought a lot of that “feel” to the show. Although the show only deals with one solar system (spoiler) the planets are far enough apart to require “jumps” be made between them. As for the western feel who knows. Traveller is very open wrt settings so maybe his take, maybe his game master played that feel or perhaps he just likes that feel or watched a lot of oaters as a kid.

[madman]

Very nice. I think if I see that fence with the “display” I would be very inclined to pass that village by…

[madman]

Or they did great deeds for the father of the noble who granted the estate. The noble, and perhaps their immediate heirs, died in the battle or subsequent, or previous, engagements or campaign. The noble house passed to an heir who did not get along with their parent, or was always disdainful of the Halvens. Perhaps they were taken with an offspring who did not reciprocate.

Or perhaps the noble either had others to reward better or the local count didn’t do anything of note. Lots of possibilities here.

[madman]

In 15mm almost none. But I do use re-purposed HO model railroad buildings. They look just about right and usually can be bought in lots for pretty good prices. Usually either as estate sales or when they get out of model railroading, start building from scratch to replace bought kit built scenics or, like us, change periods or locations.

[madman]

Mike

 

It was late and I had a hard time focusing. Maybe your approach is more what I was thinking as one direction. But my intent was HOW you got to where you are as opposed to, here is my map, here is my town info, here is my pretty painted minis which, to me, look like any other figures of the period to someone who doesn’t know the period and wouldn’t know that no unit was ever in blue uniforms of that specific colour. That is why it was chosen to be “imaginary” even though it fights just like X country, has an organization just like Y country and resources and motivation as did Z country.

Sorry still having hard time putting my thoughts into words so I hope it comes across.

[madman]

Mike, possibly but curious about alternate ways to design/develop world or economies and how that could affect initial and sustainability in a campaign.

Mike H, I am more thinking ways to design or describe initial positions. Resources to detail the “ground”, help develop initial forces, dispositions, things like that.

Sorry just taking a swing. If you are familiar with the Traveller RPG milieu, you can create the worlds, detail the terrain, resources, technology level, population and then these can give you the base game resources. The original Striker had rules to design the organization of military units and how to cost it all out. Didn’t go above Battalion level but could be worked up for armies from about WWI and up. With a little imagination you could go back to ancients, although the unit organization would look awfully like 1980s militaries!

Just kicking an idea down the road much like a tin can.

[madman]

A write up of someone’s imagination/world no. I see these in many places and no interest. What would be of interest or use would be guys showing their tables they used for generating different terrain/forces/politics, etc.. Also links or directions to : I found this to be a good source or application to do this or that.

[madman]

I like adding an element of role playing to players/leaders in a game. I am doing it with some, originally Stargrunt II now Ambush Alley/Force on Force, games set in my Traveller universe (OK one planet actually).

Also I game post WWI to future and skirmish to battalion level (miniatures scale from 6mm to 15mm) and want to introduce command and control rules but could never figure how to truly implement them without double blind and referee(s). So that is why I was following this discussion to see if anyone had a good, preferably, workable idea(s).

[madman]

Sounds more like adding role playing (and character traits to massage actions) and still friction but no command and control. Sorry, just my $0.02.

[madman]

Darkest Star

My first wargame was Wooden Ships & Iron Men back in ’74 (Battleline) and every now and again I get to play it. Feels great and not too in the weeds (or is that me). It might scratch your itch.

[madman]

Darryl

Sorry I was looking at the Raiden site which showed no WWI. Good catch on the I-94 site.

H&R is a mix of their own and Skytrex, I believe, in any case one of the older ranges. Don’t know if they redid the masters. I have many of the CinC kits from back in the day, half assembled and the rest staring at me. Fiddly is putting it as mildly as I care. I found them a big pain even back when I was in my 20s. Big shame about Shapeways, I hope the designers find other outlets as there were many I would like to get.

Don’t know if you are familiar with Canvas Eagles but very much the same as CY6, mechanics wise.

[madman]

Guy Farrish wrote:

Agreement on a wargame forum? Hmmm?

This is the war room damn it. There will no fighting in here!

[madman]

Guy Farrish wrote:

I think a working C2 requires someone to command and control, so more than one player per side in a military hierarchy or umpires to represent those command steps not so represented.

My thinking as well. Others I think agreed but some skirted the issue. Not something, without referees or a computer control, that can be solved/implemented just with rules.

 

[madman]

Raiden does not do WWI. Can’t get to Pendraken, may be one of the sites in the UK down due to server issues.

 

[madman]

Well it looks like we have not solved the requirements outlined by the OP. We can introduce friction but introducing a working command and control procedure or set of rules seems to rely on a referee or team of referees and double blind game play.

 

Or did I miss something? I don’t think so.

[madman]

I was into gaming full time from ’73 until ’93. No interest in Eastern front WWII but keen on Western front. Got back into gaming in 2016 and now interested in Eastern front and not so western other than maybe Italy. Also was more interested in armour but now infantry with small amounts of armour in support only.

 

[madman]

A lot of my games start out as board games but get converted to miniatures.

[madman]

Check out Canvas Eagles. Free on line. Lots of planes. I am part of an air gaming group (a few times a year) and play it at conventions nearby. Usually 1 or 2 planes per player. I consider it mid level difficulty. Probably about the same as “Wings of War”, or whatever it is called right now. I game in 6mm since that is where I started and some of our other guys use 1/72 plastic kits for planes. If I was starting again I like the look and size of the 1/144. The “official” WoW planes look awesome but $$$. There are a few sources of models in that size including 3D printed (not Shapeways anymore, pity.

There is a few other sets of rules out there, I have them but no experience but could give you more suggestions. I recently bought Aces of Valor (Legion Wargames) a solitaire game where you play the commanding officer of a squadron in WWI.

[madman]

Thanks guys. Since I have been doing this wargaming thing for over 5 decades I have seen, tried and considered this issue many times in the past. I am especially keen to try implementing it as many of the games/rules created since the ’90s either attempt to address these issues or are designed such that adding these aspects are more possible.

I am/was a huge fan of Striker but the orders aspect was the part I always felt didn’t work. Not that it took time to change/give orders but unless playing with a referee, or preferably a group of them, who would not only “interpret” their orders but also ignore or randomly change or ignore them. Same for any other rules which relied on written orders. I didn’t and still don’t see any difference between omnipotent command. Afterall the subordinate could interpret the “meaning” of the order to do just as you wanted to anyways. You did train for personal initiative, right?

So lots of ideas about what doesn’t work and a few where they worked in specific situations or with specific individuals but what about actual rules? Some have mentioned they have implemented some of these aspects but lets see what you have done and how to apply them please.

 

[madman]

Bob Frapples wrote:

madman wrote:

I still hold you need to know if the RPG is an HE or AT. It looks like if HE vs light (armoured) vehicles plus then the -2 would apply. If against soft skin or up-armoured then no -2 as I read it.

As all three have AT values listed, none would suffer the -2 damage penalty against Light Class and higher vehicles.

Still getting my head around FoF as we have been playing Ambush Alley up until now.

 

[madman]

I still hold you need to know if the RPG is an HE or AT. It looks like if HE vs light (armoured) vehicles plus then the -2 would apply. If against soft skin or up-armoured then no -2 as I read it.

[madman]

The HE (anti personnel) version of the RPG is 2D while the AT (armour piercing) is 3D.

[madman]

I think artillery barrages and skirmish do not go together. Yes, it might appear, but as said above makes for a bad game. Either it only happens for a single turn, then is directed elsewhere, or not an option at all.

I like the platoon with a few support units. I understand if one side is taking armour they guys I played with let the other player know so they could take anti-armour units to keep a good play balance.

WRT spreading casualties out my take would be a leader would order different squads to cover units with more casualties to spread the load as it were. That would be my take on that mechanism.

I also like the “sometimes you can do everything” and sometimes not aspect of the activation rules. Gets away from the old school I do everything then what is left on your side can act, like so many crappy games do now (think FoW and W40K).

[madman]

Thank you. Have to set up a table for Ambush Alley as my opponent is on his way over. I will digest your post later but it sounds good. Any experience with (Borderlands?) his fantasy version?

[madman]

A couple of questions. I played 5 parsecs once. I played co-op and my buddy had one of his characters killed and the other out for many scenarios in the med bay. That was the only time I played. So I have the following questions.

How do you find the reams of tables? What I mean is are you OK with them, like the variety or find so much random rolling a pain? I under stand the idea is to make the scenarios “narrative” and give you (the player) lots of scope to develop your background and character(s) just curious your take on it.

Also the same for the scenarios. I played a couple games of Stargrave and Zona Alpha and found them very much the same pig, just different lipstick. Go in with X groups of “adventurers” (1 per player) find and/or fight over the limited objectives and the winner takes the bounty out. I have played RPGs with similar scenario objectives but maybe once in a while. With SG & ZA that is all you do. Are the scenarios from 5P different from one another or a lot of same old same old. Obviously you have followed through with this system for a while so that is why I am asking you. Thank you.

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