Do the Use of Dead Figures Bother Anyone?

[Anonymous]

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– Mike.

[PaintingLittleSoldiers]

We painted a lot of casualties for the Gallipoli display in NZ and there was some talk around painting blood on them but we didnt in the end ( I did around 30 54mm dead turks). It was all a moot point anyway as Weta then went to town on them anyway with a big red brush.

I don’t use dead\wounded as markers simply as I use counters instead (and cant be bothered painting lots of extra figures)

[Etranger]

Tim, I know the model and picture you’re talking about. It was all a bit gratuitous & didn’t add to the story. They weren’t all that well done either TBH.

Personally I’ve no great aversion to the idea of using such figures as markers & use them much as you do, but I can understand why some people might be wary. I prefer them to other markers such as counters.

Here are some of mine. The red flowers are meant to be poppies, not blood! …

[kyoteblue]

Does not bother me.

[Norm S]

Interesting question.While wargaming is a central hobby to me, I am genuinely repulsed by the reality of war, suffering, injury and everything else that goes with it all.

In the first instance I mostly disconnect my ‘game’ from the real thing, though I know people outside the hobby looking in can think it all a bit strange.

Having said that there are some areas that I avoid and yes these are hypocritical notions, but they sit at the interface or cross-over of what I am comfortable with – there are not many such areas, but I stay away from Ultra Modern, it feels too close for comfort, even the Falklands which fascinates me, feels like my generation that was fighting and dying. I very much like WWII and while I enjoy the German equipment and military prowess, I do not have anything in my collection that bears a swastica and I do not have collected or painted SS forces, if they are historically in a game, for example some of my boardgames,  then so-be-it, but I don’t write scenarios that have them in.

As for the posters question of dead  counters on the table. When I see a photo in a military book with dead people in, I find myself staring at the body with a tangible sense of sadness and sympathy. So for me there is an emotional connection going on and as such the aesthetic of a dead or dying model can also invoke pause for thought, though not to the degree that I would not use them, rather to the degree that I tend not not to and simply use other markers things – which for me do not particularly spoil my table.

I would not particularly go on a crusade about this as I think we all have different levels of detachment, which are probable all arguable and I doubt any gamer revels in death or wargames for the sake of the glory of war itself. My level of cut-off just happens to be where it is  and I would neither force it on others or apologise for it.

 

[kyoteblue]

It’s only a model…….

[Norm S]

It’s only a model…….

Yes, that is another point of view.

[grizzlymc]

I don’t use dead figures because I hate all painting so I only paint what I need to game.

 

I think that it is quite healthy to occasionally remember that we are making a game of an extremely violent human activity which causes enormous destruction and morbidity and represents a complete breakdown of the social fabric of the world as a whole.  Pretending that this is just a pretty version of ludo is a bit like trying to airbrush out a picture of your rump steak prancing around a paddock.

[Spurious]

Not even slightly, to the point I am mildly surprised that it hasn’t even occurred to me that some might be put off by it. Though I did start gaming with 40k and that is full of opportunities for mini-dioramas of graphic violence, mitigated a lot by its highly cartoonish nature.

I mostly don’t use casualty figures though for the same reason I hate dragoons: having to paint 2 figures the same with my mediocre skills! This is a concern I guess really only matters though if you’re playing in something that is not a mass-battle type game, since I’ve used casualty markers for English Civil War gaming. But then I don’t tend to do mass-battle stuff so the concern sticks.

[Angel Barracks]

kyoteblue wrote:

It’s only a model…….

I must confess I do not share this view.*
A model of a soldier raping a child would illicit a very strong emotional response from me.
Yes it is part of ‘war’ but that does not mean I want to recreate it for my amusement.

I don’t use dead figure models, mostly because there are none suitable but also there is no need in rules terms.
I also don’t think it would add to the experience.
However, were I playing a 28mm game of Conan or similar I would expect lopped off limbs and all sorts of body bits and heads on spikes.
Probably the same for zombie games.

I think context is very important and also the matter of personal taste.

* unless we mean The Holy Grail and Camelot.

[John D Salt]

I cannot recall having played a game that uses casualty figures, although I am reasonably sure I must have played with someone who uses them as suppression markers. I have, however, played a few board wargames where casualties are specifically represented.

Most of the wargames I play ignore what happens to casualties once they have been taken out of the fight, and I suppose this fits with Donald Featherstone’s observation that playing with toy soldiers is good because they leave no little lead widows and orphans behind. However, there are occasions where the business of dealing with casualties needs to be shown, especially for modern minor tactics. SPI’s “Grunt” (later re-jigged as “Search and Destroy”) famously included WIA and KIA markers, and the US player was motivated by the victory point schedule to devote considerable efforts to evacuating them. At the last COW I played “Kestrel’s Hover”, a hex-based wargame written for 16th Air Assault Brigade, and there too casualty evacuation was a significant concern for the Blue player (though, unlike “Grunt”, not for Red).

Although I have seen a few skirmish-level games deal with casualty handling, I have hardly ever seen one that allows for the booby-trapping of bodies or wounded, despite the fact that checking for such traps has been part of British infantry battle drills for half of forever.

Apart from considerations of casevac, some skirmish games might feature first aid rules, and one boardgame I wrote had morale modifiers for the proximity of unevacuated friendly casualties. Some of Michael Korns’ early WW2 skirmish rules I believe included a dice roll to determine whether a casualty was a “screamer” or not, with different effects on friendly morale. Moving up a tactical level or two, one can imagine that an infantry regiment will be less than willing to repeat an attack over ground that is still carpeted with friendly dead and wounded.

Wrecking an armoured vehicle by lifting the turret and placing a puff of cotton-wool on it is a long-standing tradition, and I have never seen a miniatures game where AFVs simply vanish in the manner of personnel casualties. They are less common in boardgames, although I remember fondly the wreck markers in SPI’s “Tank!”, which offered a cover bonus. In fact AFV wrecks should probably play a much greater role in wargames than they do, as in real life a lot of ammunition is wasted on false targets — though a lot of these are middens, outhouses, woodpiles and other features that can easily be mistaken for an enemy AFV through a sight and in a hurry.

Finally, a tactical point about combined arms co-operation that I have let the game make to players a couple of times with my tank skirmish games such as “Churchill Troop Commander” — you are unlikely to make yourself popular with the infantry you are supporting if you drive at speed and closed-down through standing crops where friendly wounded are lying.

All the best,

John.

[Lagartija Mike]

Context is crucial, but in general I support the right of the artist (which is what anyone who modifies a stock figure is, however humble the talent) to represent whatever he wishes. While I’m not interested in making every tabletop slaughter a memento mori, it’s sometimes useful to be reminded that our hobby is built on misery, more or less remote.

[Nathaniel Weber]

I will use casualty markers to indicate stretcher bearers and the like.  In some conflicts, collecting the wounded/dead is of extreme importance to one or both sides.  Casualty management has become increasingly important in the 20th and 21st century, to the point where moving wounded and even retrieving the dead can lead to battles within battles. So, I am not opposed to dead and casualty figures in a game. (Though actually paying the money to buy them…)

But I see no need for gratuitous violence on the table top. No tortured POWs or civilians, skeletons roped to jeep hoods, dismembered corpses, that sort of thing. There’s a set of 20mm SS troops executing prisoners that comes to mind, and the conversion of a mercenary bush vehicle with a skeleton strapped to the hood, which are as unpalatable to me as cartoonishly proportioned female miniatures. (An exception could be made, I think, if doing a Tyranid or Bug Hunt game, where the proliferation of detached arms and legs to show where the bugs have overrun a human position would be acceptable—because it would be as goofy as the Starship Troopers movie.)

[grizzlymc]

Following on from Johns Featherstone quote.  Perhaps wargamers might be less sanguine about casualties if they had to paint up the casualty and his immediate family before the next game.

 

Whilst I would agree that a model of a soldier raping someone would be in dreadfully bad taste, the recent interest in asymeric skirmish wargaming brings all sorts of horrors into the business.  If we are to allocate points to the insurgents for varying degrees of success in their attack on the oil depot, why should we not do so for the attack on the girls school.  I have taken grim delight in reducing Dresden to ashes and I well remember the glee with which I harvested “CRPs” in an old SPI WWI strategic game.

When you think about what that cotton wool puff coming out of the tank means, these things are all pretty relative.

 

[Rod Robertson]

Tim:

Forty years ago I built a 1/35 Tamyia model of a knocked out Pz III J in Russia. The model featured two scratch-built dead German tank crew, both partially out of the tank, one on the foredeck and the other half out of a turret side hatch. The tank was a burnt out wreck and the bodies were blackened and charred. It was very realistic but not in my mind gratuitously ghoulish. It was based on an historical photo I found in a magazine. There were Soviet infantry crouching around the tank. I thought that the model was a legitimate statement about war and man’s inhumanity to man but just about everyone who ever saw the model was repulsed and angered by it. My parents were quite angry with me for building it that way and my mum (a US Army nurse from World War II) would not allow me to display it anywhere in the house, including my own bedroom. It remained in a box for several years and then disappeared one summer while I was away from home traveling. Depicting war can be a tricky thing and my desire to accurately portray it in this one model caused real social and familial blow-back for me and triggered a self-censorship mechanism which still guides me today.

I personally use cardboard markers to mark the dead and wounded in games but I have played many games were ‘dead’ miniatures have served as markers. There is nothing wrong with that, so long as the dead markers are not too graphic and do not celebrate gore. However, I would be highly offended if a game included vignettes of atrocities such as rape or executions as markers. That goes too far in my mind.

I have some 15mm Peter Pig resin tank wrecks which I want to use as terrain and cover but these castings are very graphic, with dead crew splayed out of turrets and deck hatches. I have purposely not painted them yet as I don’t know how to ‘tastefully’ handle painting the dead. It is really quite a dilemma for me and brings up my forty year old shame.

Rod Robertson.

[Mike]

Etranger wrote:

Tim, I know the model and picture you’re talking about. It was all a bit gratuitous & didn’t add to the story. They weren’t all that well done either TBH.

Are you willing to share the link?

[Lagartija Mike]

The more I think of it the more dishonest it seems not to portray the dead graphically. A sanitizing hypocrisy, like Japanese porn with the genitalia airbrushed away or covered in blushing emojis.

[Mike]

My games are dishonest anyway, they are always designed to give each side an equal chance of ‘winning’…

[McLaddie]

When I was a teen I painted casualty figures for ‘disorder’ markers without thinking about it. There might even have been blood. Now, like others I just don’t want to spend the time when I could be painting other, more interesting figures or terrain.

However, it is true about the context. Certainly there are things about war and violence that have no place in what is a hobby and entertainment… but

I have seen several miniature dioramas with casualties and blood all around, portraying the Death of LaSalle, Lannes and other battlefield notables. The Guard’s last stand at Waterloo.  ACW hospitals with limbs piled up.  Burned out tanks and bodies seems a little tame, if only because of the lack of blood and body count. But hey, gratuitous violence and death is entertainment regardless.

How about war movies like Glorious Bastards and Fury or slasher movies like Saw or even Silence of the Lambs.  Have you seen John Wick?

Or how about cage fighting on HBO, let alone WW wrestling and boxing.

I am in a writing group along with authors like Allison Brennan. She writes thrillers, and is very successful. I can’t read them. Between the villains and what they do as serial killers etc., I am quickly grossed out. Lots of books like that out there. You wonder how the writers live with their characters for months on end while thinking up such things.  Allison is a mother of three and fine person… and she doesn’t lose sleep over it.

That’s entertainment, and often no one comments on the graphic violence.

Point being, whatever it is we do, we do it. It isn’t manufactured for us in graphic detail like the examples above.  We don’t revel in it or is the violence and gore the primary focus of our past time, unlike those mentioned above. Through our games, we even have a more immediate sense of what war costs and the limits on success, unlike most violent entertainments.

I think it is good to ask the question about the appropriateness of what we do now and then, but that is far more soul-searching than many, many of those who produce [and enjoy] the movie, book and TV violence and gore from what I can tell.

So, yeah.  Context.  I don’t think wargamers have much to feel self-conscious about concerning our hobby subject. Casualty figures are small potatoes compared to the entertainments enjoyed by society at large.

 

[Patrice]

I have no problem with dead figures; I hate other casualty markers; and most of my gaming friends actually think that the gaming table is nice with some dead figures scattered where the fightings have been hard. But there is no need of adding too much blood.

 

 
Depicting executions or torture, etc, is another problem. It depends on the context.

Hangings, for example, can easily be included in a scenario that takes place before the 20th century (medieval, pirates, western…) The gamers and the visitors are not shocked to see it, probably because they don’t really believe in it, it reminds them of films etc, it can even make them laugh. But nobody would accept to see a similar scene in a WW2 game.

 

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[irishserb]

Casualty figures don’t bother me particularly.  I only use them in my 20mm Vietnam games, mostly because, wounds are kept track off, as is ammo, weapons, etc.  The casualty figure marks the location of all of that, without having the underside of the base from a toppled figure interfering with LOS, and disrupting the continuity of the terrain.

I don’t use them in 15mm games, as I tend to use a lot more figs, and the cost for casualty figs would be significant.  Despite using individually mounted figs in both scales, the scope of the games are a little different.  In campaigns, I keep track of wounds, but usually not ammo and weapons. In non-campaign games 15mm casualties are usually just removed.

In 6mm, fire teams and sections are simply removed.

While I don’t tend to have a problem with casualty figures, I do tend to often ponder my own little hypocrisy with respect to wargaming.  I am not a naturally competitive person, and I am more anti-war than most of those around me in the real world.  On the surface, wargaming would seem to be the opposite of who I am.  Yet I play.

When playing historical games, or games set in realistic or historical settings, I do tend to be aware of the losses, the destruction, and what it would mean in the real world.  Sometimes I have a problem with this creeping up in my AARs, lamenting the losses and horror.  I often fins that I need to edit a lot of that sort of thing out before sharing the AAR.

In any event,  casualty figures do not cause me any problems.

[willz]

Use them in some games not in others, so no it does not bother me using them.

Being bothered about dead or casualty markers in wargames seems a bit strange to me.  Do people also worry about using flame throwers, land mines, barbed wire, caltrops, missiles, cannons, guns, bows, knifes in wargames.  What about using petrol or nuclear power markers do people take offence from them or what happens if you are a vegetarian (no vegetarians were hurt in the making of this post) is it incorrect to state that your army are meat eaters or vegans.

[Sane Max]

it’s interesting that this has never ever occurred to me in all these years. I use them in AK47, Black Powder, F&F and on and on, and even while painting them I have never thought ‘this might upset someone’

I did once think Wargames might be a lot more interesting if you had to have the same number of casualty markers as soldiers, and so units shrank and left a trail of dead markers behind them like a trail of horror – AK47 almost does it. But at no point did i think ‘but that might upset someone’ just ‘that would be a major PITA to paint them all up.’

I guess I am firmly in the ‘Only a model’ camp

Oddly, MIR did a range of ‘Soldiers and Civilians’ called ‘classified X and I am fairly sure some of the females were not consenting partners. I have no idea if anyone bought them, but they may well have done. If I went to a show and someone had put on a Demo game with rape, and death and burning tanks and weeping civilians trudging from their ruined homes, and dead bloating animals in the fields complete with some ‘off’ steak and a pile of scorched oily rags underneath the table for the aroma, along with a soundtrack of sobbing and explosions would not ‘offend’ me but I bet it would offend some people one hell of a lot.

[grizzlymc]

Particularly the off steak.  Gratuitous violence is one thiing but people can get sick on off steak.

[Lagartija Mike]

I’ve seen wargamers, putative adults, erupt at the site a band howling naked gaesati, as if their hetero status was being challenged by the presence of near-subatomic Celtic pot metal phallii. Yet a tableaux of thoroughly pruned mujahadeen torsos leave them smacking their lips contentedly.

[Not Connard Sage]

grizzlymc wrote:

Particularly the off steak. Gratuitous violence is one thiing but people can get sick on off steak.

 

Absolutely. Besides, off pork is closer to decaying human flesh.

The only other observation I have to make on this subject is that it’s bloody fortunate that earlier wargamers were made of sterner stuff than today’s tree-hugging, yoghurt-weaving, ‘oh, it must be inclusive’ PC brigade or else the hobby would have withered on the vine. I suppose that many of them had seen real violent death, which may have given them a slightly different perspective.

If it’s not gratuitous, where’s the problem? I shall continue using ‘dead’ lead soldiers, sans gore, as casualty markers. If anyone wishes to confuse/conflate them with actual dead humans and get the vapours then that’s their lookout. I suggest they take a look through some old Airfix catalogues as a restorative, their boxes of military figures always seemed to contain at least one ‘dead’ or ‘falling, wounded’ figure (the Guards band and colour party being notable exceptions…).

Really, do we need this navel-gazing?

 

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[grizzlymc]

Actually, I seem to remember that neither the Robin Hood, nor the Sherriff of Nottingham set had a corpse.  I always liked the commando cluthcing his tripes and holding his hand to his head, one could almost hear the MP38 chatter.

 

And then there were those damn astronauts!

[Rules Junkie Jim]

When I was in school I did a diorama of a goodly bit of what I considered to be D-Day that involved large numbers of prone Airfix fellas and copious amounts of red Humbrol. Fast forward 200 years and I cut the dead guys off Irregular Miniatures 6mm modern bases and bury them with full military honours. That last bit isn’t true, but the rest is.

[grizzlymc]

Well the least you could do is sell ’em on ebay, saves people cuting the bases off perfectly good figures.

[Lagartija Mike]

Slightly related, I almost never see figures painted to represent the bloody, grungy wear and tear of combat. Whole regiments of tagmata or pandours or whatever looking like they just stepped out of Kitmart. Shiny. Candy-colored. But a little b.s.

Even more peripheral, is there some twilight conspiracy among manufacturers to make all Viking figures with the builds of zaftig Mauve Decade ingenues? It doesn’t seem likely they’d be this aggresively porky.

[Piyan Glupak]

I use casualty figures as attrition markers with my Napoleonic games.  They are conveniently sized, and don’t look out of place too much.  One or two casualties added to a base of 24 figures doesn’t look over the top, in my opinion.

We wargame as a hobby; the sad fact is that a lot of soldiers died or were maimed in the fighting.  Before the 20th Century, even more died from disease.  I understand that Ulysses S. Grant stated that war is hell.  Nothing that I have read or heard contradicts that statement.

[Patrice]

I don’t think anyone ever protested against the Old Glory set of “Pirate looters with victims”?

However we once had a remark from a young Black teenage girl in a games convention where we had a pirate game. Amongst the miniatures of civilians displayed near a village on the game table were a few slaves. This visitor was not shocked by the mention of slavery, but by the fact that these miniatures were in loincloth; she said: “Black men wear trousers as everyone else!” It surprised me — I was expecting to hear remarks about mentioning slaves in a game, not about their clothing. I’m not sure that she was entirely satisfied with our answer that in a previous game we also had miniatures of totally naked White men (Picts)…

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[McLaddie]

One of my buddies reminded me that we use casualty figures in TSTF extensively, either because as the British player [in the Sudan], the wounded can’t be left behind and as the Mahdi player, the native wounded can rise up and attack the British troops as they walk over them.

I completely forgot that, probably because I didn’t paint the casualty figures, but it goes to show how below my gaming radar the issue is for me.  With Patrice’s example, different folks are sensitive/aware of different aspects of wargaming… and from unexpected points of view too.

[Sane Max]

96% of offended people* are not offended by the things they are offended by – they just want to be offended. I have a large ACW Confederate Army** and I am just waiting for someone to be offended by the one unit that is carrying the ‘Stars and Bars’***. And I Know full well they are not actually offended at all – they are just looking for a chance to show they are on-message.

Given that, I am quite surprised no-one has ever had a little hissy fit about dead people on the table. This suggests to me they are not really very offensive and we should all snap out of it.

*I may have made that up. Does that offend you? Good.
** I have both sides. I am not a fan of The South. Then again I am not that much of a fan of the North. But they look good on a table.
*** yes, I know – but if the badly educated of today have decided the Dukes of Hazard Flag is the ‘Stars n Bars’, Who am I to correct them?

[Shandy]

Hm, a pity that this discussion degraded into a ‘evil offended PC people will bring us all down!!!’ rant.

I found the comments by Norm Smith and Michael very interesting. I think context is paramount and offending someone is not an innate right constituting human nature. So, if the game isn’t ‘just a game’ for someone, maybe it won’t hurt to listen why the person feels that way? Maybe, when talking and discussing the issue (casualty figures, Confederate battle flags, whatever), we all can learn more about the place of violence and war – and the fascinating it has – in our society.

I’m getting a bit tired of the ‘just a game’ or ‘just a model’ argument, which is always thrown in when something is criticized. Of course it’s not just a game, otherwise you wouldn’t spend thousands of Euros on figures or long hours on painting. We are all involved, otherwise we’d do something different. And what we make are representations and representations always have meanings – and those meaning are as divers as the people looking at them. So I don’t think it’s wasted time to think about those meaning and to also think about what our representations may mean to people which don’t know anything about the peculiar world of wargaming.

My blog: http://wargamingraft.wordpress.com

[Not Connard Sage]

Shandy wrote:

Of course it’s not just a game, otherwise you wouldn’t spend thousands of Euros on figures or long hours on painting.

 

Hold on

Then what is wargaming if not just a game? I’ve spent thousands of pounds and hours on wargaming, and I’ve never tried to kid myself it’s anything other than what it says it is – gaming war.

Equally, I’ve spent many more thousands of pounds and a lot of hours on my other hobbies. I don’t try to kid myself I’m Valentino or Francis Rossi either (although I probably know a few more chords than Francis…)

At the end of the day, they’re all leisure activities. No-one is forced to ‘do’ a hobby, it’s voluntary. If anyone begrudges the time and money invested they should probably go and do something else.

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Sane Max]

thousands? I am fairly confident I have spent hundreds of thousands. But it’s still just a game. Fun. a Diversion. If I spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on tiddlywinks would that suddenly make it important?

and my point was not ‘OOOH IT’S PC Gone Mad’ – my point was that in a world where people can be offended by anything, the fact I have never encountered anyone offended by my Dead Markers makes it a fair assumption not many people will be.

[Shandy]

Sorry, that may have been a bit unclear: What I meant was just that we have an emotional investment into the hobby. If I would take all your lovely painted figures and sprayed them black, would you just laugh and say: Nevermind, they are just models?

I guess what I wanted to say is that no one – not even we – is neutral, unemotional, detached when he or she looks at a wargaming setup. Some feel a bit queasy about unpainted figures, others about Confederate battle flags. One’s queasiness isn’t more legitimate than the other’s.

I think it’s more interesting to have a discussion about why people don’t like casualty figures, gaming ultra modern or Age of Sigmar than it is to dismiss all those people as damned PC liburals who are out to take away my toys OMG!!!

My blog: http://wargamingraft.wordpress.com

[Sane Max]

Shandy wrote:

Sorry, that may have been a bit unclear: What I meant was just that we have an emotional investment into the hobby. If I would take all your lovely painted figures and sprayed them black, would you just laugh and say: Nevermind, they are just models?

I think you are mixing up ‘important’ with ‘Important to me.’

Shandy wrote:

I think it’s more interesting to have a discussion about why people don’t like casualty figures,……than it is to dismiss all those people as damned PC liburals who are out to take away my toys OMG!!!?

But as far as we can tell, no one doesn’t like casualty figures, that’s my point – We are discussing a problem that doesn’t exist. Should we start a thread about whether Green Playing Surfaces offend people from the Orange Order?

I am going to paint little names on all my dead markers and see if that has an effect. It works for Lions.

[Not Connard Sage]

Shandy wrote:

I guess what I wanted to say is that no one – not even we – is neutral, unemotional, detached when he or she looks at a wargaming setup. Some feel a bit queasy about unpainted figures, others about Confederate battle flags. One’s queasiness isn’t more legitimate than the other’s. I think it’s more interesting to have a discussion about why people don’t like casualty figures, gaming ultra modern or Age of Sigmar than it is to dismiss all those people as damned PC liburals who are out to take away my toys OMG!!!

Nothing I’ve ever seen in a wargame has made me feel ‘queasy’. I strongly dislike sci-fi games, but I’ve found I can easily avoid them. Some of the opinions of other gamers both in reality and virtually though – well, that’s a different thing altogether.

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Author]

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