FOF WWII

[Mrsnufflelumpyguts]

Hey guys…
Such a big fan of Force on force and its actions and interruptions mechanic.
I already have a large Special forces and Taliban collection, but where my interest lies is in converting and creating rules and mechanics, vehicle and weapon stats for WWII. I have mostly 12th SS vs Canadians in 15mm at the moment.
I would love to hear you guys thoughts on vehicle and weapon stats.

So far for weapons I subscribe to….

BAR – AP+1, no team bonus, light.
Bren – AP+1, team bonus +1, light.
MG 42 non belt bi-pod – AP+2, team bonus +1, medium. Intimidating.
MG 42 belt fed bi-pod – AP+2, team bonus +2, medium. Intimidating.
MG 42 tripod – AP+3, team bonus +2, heavy. Intimidating.
Browning 0.3 – AP+3, +2 team bonus, medium.
0.5 cal – AP:4/AT:1, +2 team bonus, heavy.
MP-44 – Same as smg without penalty for beyong optimum range. ie 2 dice within optimum range, 1 dice beyond.
Light mortar – AP+1, team bonus +1.
Bazooka – Med AP:2/AT:3 (M) Range = 3 x optimum range.
Piat – Med AP:2/AT:3 (M) Range = 2 x optimum range.
Panzerfaust – AP:2/AT:4 (H) Range = 2 x optimum range.
Panzershreck – AP:2/AT:4 (H) Range = 3 x optimum range.

Weapons teams are the ones I have trouble with…should a two man Bren team split from their squad to make a two man weapon team with AP+1 and weapon team bonus +1 and leave the rest of the squad to split into 2 x 4 man teams?
Should both the four man and five man teams of a 12th SS squad, both teams with MG-42s belt fed be given a weapon team bonus due to the destructive fire of the MG-42, leaving both at FP – 8 and 9 respectively? Or should two, two man MG-42 teams be split from the squad (at FP 6 each) leaving one five man team….
Any ideas here would be appreciated.

Some vehicle stats.

Sherman Firefly VC – Class M, Type T Front – 3D8, Side – 2D8, Rear – 1D8, Deck – 1d6 Crew – 5
17pndr gun – AP:0/AT:4(M) 1 x 3D mg.
Death trap, Heavy hitter.

Jagdpanzer IV – Class M, Type D. Front – 3D8, Side – 1D8, Rear – 1D8 Deck. Side skirts – 1+ extra D6 against side shots. Crew – 5
7.5 PAK39 gun – AP:3/AT:3(M) 1 x 3D mg
Restricted arc of fire.

Love to hear your ideas and vehicle stats!
Kind regards – Lumpy.

[maggico]

When I understand how to insert a file, I have the stats of some vehicles and weapons from the old forum.

[Mrsnufflelumpyguts]

Great stuff…

Also I have been thinking about the troop quality and morale of the fighting man in WWII.
It would seem that most men were of an equal fighting quality but with different morale and confidence…
Mostly I give troops a TQ:D8 rating with varying types of morale.
For instance in regards to my Canadians and 12th SS…

Canadian Regina rifles – TQ:D8/M:D10 Confident, Normally supplied or even abundantly supplied.

The 12th SS Hitler Jugend (who had great fighting spirit but were not exactly veteran troops)
TQ:D8/M:D12 High confidence, Poorly supplied (due to the ever present Jabo’s) and with the added house rule of “Elite” – This being a extra rule allowing the 12th SS to re-roll any failed morale dice due to their absolute fanaticism.

Higher statistics could be given to tank aces and leaders such as Kurt Meyer or those veterans they mixed in with the Hitler youth lads from Liebstandarte etc.

Might probably give (maybe) 2nd SS Das Reich TQ:10/M:12 High confidence, “Elite”

Not sure on what I would give the German para’s in Normandy…

British 3rd division TQ:D8/M:D10, Confident, Abundantly supplied.

British 7th armoured TQ:D8/M:D8, Low confidence.

I would only rate Early war Russians, Volksturm, partisans, or German Ost troops as TQ:D6 with appropriate morale and confidence.

Would love to hear everybody’s ideas on this one as well.

Kind regards – Lumpy.

[maggico]

Unitl now I don’t know how to insert files inside a thread. Btw, these are the stats about support weapons from the old forum

A/T weapons

M1A1/M9A1 Bazooka Med. Sup. AP:2/AT:3(M)

PIAT Med. Sup. AP:2/AT:3(M)

Panzerzfaust Med. Sup. AP:2/AT:4(H)

Panzerschrek Med. Sup. AP:2/AT:4(H)

Machine guns

M1919A4 Med. Sup. AP:2/AT:0
M2 Hvy. Sup. AP:3/AT:1(L)

Vickers MMG Med. Sup. AP:2/AT:0

Bren Light Sup. AP:1/AT:0

M1918A2 BAR Light Sup. AP:1/AT:0

MG34/42 Non-belt Light Sup. AP:2/AT:0

MG34/42 bipod Med. Sup. AP:2/AT:0

MG34/42 tripod Hvy. Sup. AP:3/AT:0

Type 11 Light Sup. AP:1/AT:0

Type 96 Light Sup. AP:1/AT:0

Type 92 Hvy. Sup. AP:2/AT:0

 

[Mrsnufflelumpyguts]

Thanks Maggico….these will surely come in handy.

Let me know if you find those vehicle stats….

Kind regards lumpy.

[maggico]

The problem is that I don’t know how to insert a file from my hard disk.

[Mrsnufflelumpyguts]

No…me neither.
Oh well, if you can engineer some up id love to see them too.
Thanks Maggico…

[maggico]

Nothing. I’ll try to insert the file but I don’t understand the site.

[dead1]

Good stuff Lumpy.

I have the WWII mods for V1, but totally agree that hand held AT weapons need a maximum range (especially Fausts) and was thinking of a similar solution to yours.

 

With regards to Bren guns, did the Brits use them in a similar fashion to the Germans with their MG34/42S?  From what I’ve read the Germans were a bit more advanced with their tactics in this regard but I could be wrong.

I was going to treat the Bren as a SAW.  Only dismounted Carrier teams might get the Team Bonus.

 

 

I’ll be knocking up a few scenarios in the following weeks and will post them up here.

[Mrsnufflelumpyguts]

Will look forward to those scenarios dead1.

Your comments on the Bren are right I think…I might just take those on…

[Mike Headden]

“British 7th armoured TQ:D8/M:D8, Low confidence.”

Why “low confidence,” when they’re arguably the most effective Allied armoured unit in NW Europe?

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[dead1]

Mike Headden wrote:

“British 7th armoured TQ:D8/M:D8, Low confidence.” Why “low confidence,” when they’re arguably the most effective Allied armoured unit in NW Europe?

7th Armoured’s performance in NW Europe was not up to standard especially at Villers-Bocage.  The result was about 100 officers including the commander being removed from their posts.  This did not improve the division’s performance and they had another purge in November 1944.  The unit suffered from battle fatigue.

It’s interesting but the British Army’s performance in NW Europe wasn’t generally that great.  Thanks to Montgomery they lacked  good strategic drive and got bogged in initial stages of Normandy invasion despite being given area with more open terrain and opportunities for manoeuvre.  They got bogged in Netherlands as well (this included Canadian units bogged at Scheldt)  Tactically they seemed to struggle against the Germans and suffered a few humiliations be it Villers Bocage or annihilation of a British Churchill column by 3 Jagdpanthers of 654 Heavy Tank Destroyer battalion.

During Operation Goodwood, British units displayed poor tactical performance and understanding of key tactics ala suppression fire, manoeuvre coordination and usage of combined arms.  Tank units descended back into suicide rushes ala early parts Africa.  There was massive shortages in good NCOs and junior officers.

But bad strategic command invariably ends up in poor tactical performance!

I always get the feeling that NW Europe was essentially an American show especially during and after Operation Cobra.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mrsnufflelumpyguts]

I’m going to have to do that three Jagdpanthers vs Churchhills as a scenario now…..

 

[Rod Robertson]

Not really much of a battle. Two of three Jagdpanthers from the 654 Schw Pz Abt. advanced out of cover near Caumont, blasted 11 Churchill tanks, received withering fire and realised they were facing three whole squadrons of British tanks and hastily retreated over a crest line to seek cover on a reverse slope. The whole engagement took roughly two minutes. Two were later found damaged (track damage) and the third got away. You can read about it in, “Panzers in Normandy: Then and Now”, by Eric Lefevre, pp.120-121.

Cheers and good gaming.

Rod Robertson.

[Dumbbomb]

We have just commenced a WW2 Force on Force campaign in 28mm and 15mm.  There are not many changes to the core rules.   Though we are still mulling a few.

Here is a link to the rules posts on our blog.

http://bigfof.blogspot.com.au/search/label/Rules?m=0

[Papasan]

In the original FoF book it gives guidelines for WW2 vehicle defence & firepower:

Defence ie armour:

Protected (Class 1: 2D6) – Sdkfz251, M3 Half Track etc

Light (Class 2: 3D6) – Stuart, T60, T70, Marder family

Medium (Class 3: 3D8) M4 Sherman, P.III, P.IV(late), T.34, Churchill Mk.III/V

Heavy (Class 4: 4D10) P.V Panther, Sherman Jumbo, Tiger 1, IS/KV family, Churchill Mk.VII

Extra Heavy (Class 4: 5D12) Tiger II, Jagdtiger

Side or applied armour (tracks, schurzen, sandbags etc) +1D until first hit

Side and rear armour -1D

AFV deck armour -2D

Firepower:

All Class 0 weapons throw 2D vs infantry and soft vehicles only.

All Class 1 weapons throw 3D

Class 2 weapons:
Class 2 (3D) light guns up to 25mm
Class 2 (4D) light guns up to 57mm/6pdr & German 75mmL/24

Class 3 weapons:
Class 3 (3D) Medium guns of low velocityup to 76mm, 25pdr…PIAT, Bazooka
Class 3 (4D) High velocityy guns of 75mm up to 90mm, PzFaust, PzSchreck
Class 3 (5D) High velocity very long 88mm L/71 and 122 & 128mm guns

Values may vary depending on vehicle characteristics, examples given:

Stug IIIG: Front 3D8, side & rear 2D8; (+any bonus’ for add on armour) 75mm L/48: 4D; crew MGs 3D; survivabilty 4 on D10

P.IV H/J: Front 3D8, side & rear 2D8; (+any bonus’ for add on armour) 75mm L/48: 4D; crew MGs 3D; survivabilty 4 on D8

P.V Panther: Front 4D10, side & rear 2D10; (+any bonus’ for add on armour) 75mm L/70: 5D; crew MGs 3D; survivabilty 4 on D8

Sherman (75): Front 3D8, side & rear 2D8; (+any bonus’ for add on armour) 75mm L/38: 3D; crew MGs 3D; survivabilty 4 on D8

M10 TD: Front 3D6, side & rear 2D6; (+any bonus’ for add on armour) 75mm L/53: 4D; crew MGs 3D; survivabilty 4 on D6.
HVAP round available after Sep ’44 is +1 FP die (5D), when fired roll TQ, fail means that ammo expended.

M18 TD: Front 2D6, side & rear 1D6; (+any bonus’ for add on armour) 75mm L/55: 4D; crew MGs 3D; survivabilty 4 on D6.
HVAP round available after Sep ’44 is +1 FP die (5D), when fired roll TQ, fail means that ammo expended.

M5 Stuart: Front 3D6, side & rear 2D6; (+any bonus’ for add on armour) 37mm L/53: 4D; crew MGs 3D; survivabilty 4 on D6.

Infantry close assault might come in handy too:

Improvised AT – eg Molotov:  +1D
AT grenades: +2D
Limpet Mines; +3D
Satchel Charge; +4D

 

[Oddball]

Hi

I would like to incorporate tanks firing on the move in my Force on Force WW2 games – any thoughts on suitable modifiers.

appreciate that tanks in WW2 didn’t have all the gizmos of modern battle tanks e.g. Laser range finders, stabilisation etc etc but there must have been instances where tanks fired on the move instead of being stationary and I want to replicate this on the gaming table. Most other rule sets allow for this.

Feedback appreciated!

cheers

 

 

 

[Mike]

Hi,

 

There is no option for uploading files to TWW’s server.
As with images you will need to upload it to another site and share the URL here, maybe Dropbox or similar.

[Papasan]

Oddball wrote:

Hi I would like to incorporate tanks firing on the move in my Force on Force WW2 games – any thoughts on suitable modifiers. appreciate that tanks in WW2 didn’t have all the gizmos of modern battle tanks e.g. Laser range finders, stabilisation etc etc but there must have been instances where tanks fired on the move instead of being stationary and I want to replicate this on the gaming table. Most other rule sets allow for this. Feedback appreciated! cheers

The simplest solution would be just to throw 1D for AFV moving fire, however…
You could complicate it further by graduating it for speed and range but it might become overly complex ?
eg -1D for patrol speed,  -2D for cruise speed, or something like that,  and couple  it with some kind of units of range based on TQ – say twice optimum range ? Maybe no penalty for the first unit, -1D for the second, -2D for the third.

So a unit with TQ8 with a tank with 3D attack fires on the move at Patrol speed at a target 20″ away … gets -1D for speed -1D for range so can put 1D FP on target.

You’ll have to try it out to see what suits you best.

 

[John D Salt]

I’ve got a big bowl of popcorn, here, dead1.

I really don’t have the energy, I’m getting ready for COW, and I expect Martin R is as well.

All the best,

John.

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