Old Man Yells At Rules

[Angel Barracks]

Norm S wrote:

we should not be surprised that things change over that time and will keep on changing.

But it has not changed, you have always been able to use any figures with any rules, that was kind of my point.
So when people make a big thing of saying stuff like ‘you can use any figures with MY rules’, well yeah, ofc, your rules and all the other rules…

It is this notion that somehow their rules are unique in this aspect, when it really very isn’t.

[ian pillay]

Norm S wrote:

If you haven’t got a copy of Armies of the Dark Ages by Ian Heath on your shelves that you read before bedtime to knock yourself out, then you’re not a proper wargamer.

I have this venerable tomb, it makes for excellent knockout reading for sure. Excellent reply norm.

Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

[willz]

Ahhh I see the confusing here, we all assume that this hobby is for enjoyment and fun but its all about spending hours locked in a small room researching our selected period /scale.  Spending days painting the correct shade of sand under the toenails of our Spartan hoplites, getting the correct shade and smell of our 18th century French uniforms.  Its all about slaving away with research, modelling and painting, not about enjoying it, its about punishing ourselves because we are not put on this earth to enjoy our life but to be unhappy about our hobby and regret all the money we spend trying to achieve on our hobby.

Or maybe its all about personal pride in our achievement of relaxation.

[willz]

ian pillay wrote:

Norm S wrote:

If you haven’t got a copy of Armies of the Dark Ages by Ian Heath on your shelves that you read before bedtime to knock yourself out, then you’re not a proper wargamer.

I have this venerable tomb, it makes for excellent knockout reading for sure. Excellent reply norm.

I have it also but I find “Principles of Underwater  by Robert J. Urick” was the best for getting me to sleep fast, had it at sea for many years.

[Ruarigh]

Angel Barracks wrote:

But it has not changed, you have always been able to use any figures with any rules, that was kind of my point. So when people make a big thing of saying stuff like ‘you can use any figures with MY rules’, well yeah, ofc, your rules and all the other rules… It is this notion that somehow their rules are unique in this aspect, when it really very isn’t.

Given the questions on some forums, it is clear that some people need telling this though. They have perhaps followed a route into wargaming via one of the prescriptive rules sets that say you must use the specific variety of 36.5mm Space Womble that only has three skullz on the left shoulder pad, and that the 36.75mm one with four skullz is now no longer usable. I often see similar questions about size of figures. “Will these rules work with 15mm/18mm/43.65421mm figures?” is not an uncommon question. I figure that if the rules say stuff like that, I can nod sagely and smugly say, “Yes. I know that.” and skip quickly over it to the important parts of the rules. It’s not relevant to me, but might be useful to others. If they are presenting this as a unique feature, I think it suggests that the rules write has come via one of the prescriptive routes too.

Never argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

https://roderickdale.co.uk/
https://emidsvikings.ac.uk/

[Mike]

Ruarigh wrote:

I think it suggests that the rules write has come via one of the prescriptive routes too.

Good point!

[Stephen Holmes]

I think that asking about rules / scale compatibility is a far more credible question.

Some rules are very flexible in a “Fill the base with figures” sort of way.

Rules that deal with individual figures are more inclined to favour figures matched in scale with the games move and shooting ranges.

[Norm S]

Angel Barracks wrote:

Norm S wrote:

we should not be surprised that things change over that time and will keep on changing.

But it has not changed, you have always been able to use any figures with any rules, that was kind of my point. So when people make a big thing of saying stuff like ‘you can use any figures with MY rules’, well yeah, ofc, your rules and all the other rules… It is this notion that somehow their rules are unique in this aspect, when it really very isn’t.

Yes, the principle of that issue has not changed, though most notably to those who have never practiced it (me), but that is not the point, the point is that whether by perception or influenced mindset, there are gamers who are locked in to the habit of ‘these figures for these rules’ which of course it is not a problem for those people if they are happy with that – though I imagine they may be heartily satisfied to discover that other rulesets exist and that they can use their current collection with them. A sort of win-win and so well done to the author of the rules that switches that light on for them.

I am always happy when a rules author tells me that I don’t need to re-base

I was also pleased to ‘learn’ that I can play with unpainted figures, oh wait, that may not be right, I’m not 100% sure on what the latest guidance on that is – need to check it out before I embarrass myself …… too late!

[Sane Max]

Norm S wrote:

I was also pleased to ‘learn’ that I can play with unpainted figures, oh wait, that may not be right, I’m not 100% sure on what the latest guidance on that is – need to check it out before I embarrass myself …… too late!

 

What set of rules tell you that? So I don’t buy them by mistake? Edit Oh yes, one hour wargames – well he says ‘you CAN’ but then pretty much says ‘but seriously, why?’

You can use an army of Barbies v Action men for HOTT. You can play Dragon Rampant entirely using plastic Toy Dinosaurs.   Paper flats? Sure. But unpainted figures? No. No you can’t do that. Trust me, you can’t.

 

[Not Connard Sage]

Sane Max wrote:

I have to confess on one or two occasions I have bought armies because I thought they were cool and then researched them afterwards. I justify it as ‘I would not have learned about the difference between the armies of the Early Assyrian Empire and the Late Assyrian Empire If I had not bought all of these Hupshu by mistake’, so it’s a spur to learning, a bit like watching a bad historical movie and going off to discover the truth.

 

In the early 90s I bought a load of Magister Militum 15mm Burmese on a whim, because lots of Elephants! With lots of crew!

Do you realise how much information there isn’t on medieval Burmese warriors?

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Norm S]

Sane Max wrote:

Norm S wrote:

I was also pleased to ‘learn’ that I can play with unpainted figures, oh wait, that may not be right, I’m not 100% sure on what the latest guidance on that is – need to check it out before I embarrass myself …… too late!

What set of rules tell you that? So I don’t buy them by mistake? Edit Oh yes, one hour wargames – well he says ‘you CAN’ but then pretty much says ‘but seriously, why?’ You can use an army of Barbies v Action men for HOTT. You can play Dragon Rampant entirely using plastic Toy Dinosaurs. Paper flats? Sure. But unpainted figures? No. No you can’t do that. Trust me, you can’t.

Thank you for that rescue and for saving me several hours of internet search. I am going to spend the morning writing that into all of my rule books as errata (stupid rule books, why can’t they just tell you that on page 1 ……. and thank goodness I can now dedicate the next 20 years (if I have that!) getting everything I own painted. In the meantime, ordering Barbie now so that I can actually get something onto the table.

[Shaun Travers]

I think Barbies and Action Men would be better suited to Pulp Alley (on a larger board).  But you would have to check the Pulp Alley rules to see if you are allowed to play with any figures.  Does Barbie count as being painted if she is one colour?  And before anyone passes comment, I will neither confirm nor deny that I may or may not have access to these figures if I was tempted to put them on the table.

🙂

[Ruarigh]

Wasn’t there a participation game using Action Men that did the rounds of the shows some (probably lots, my sense of the recent past is badly skewed) years ago?

Never argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

https://roderickdale.co.uk/
https://emidsvikings.ac.uk/

[Sane Max]

Ruarigh wrote:

Wasn’t there a participation game using Action Men that did the rounds of the shows some (probably lots, my sense of the recent past is badly skewed) years ago?

I’ve seen Things you people wouldn’t believe.  Wade’s Whimsies at a Hott Tournament. I’ve seen Barbies Glitter in the Dark near the ..Hott Tournament. All these moments will be lost in time, as soon as I can make myself forget them. Time to Paint some more stuff.

[Sane Max]

Norm S wrote:

and thank goodness I can now dedicate the next 20 years (if I have that!) getting everything I own painted. In the meantime, ordering Barbie now so that I can actually get something onto the table.

 

I mean… I always assumed you were at the …  more mature end of the age spectrum? Surely you have something painted already you can use? If not, what have you been doing? I am a Magpie, but I have a damn site more completed armies than I have shiny Stuff I want to play with but can’t ‘cos it’s still shiny.

Playing with unpainted figures is Bad Norm.  Seriously. Maybe allowed if you play by yourself i suppose.

 

[Darkest Star Games]

Ruarigh wrote:

Wasn’t there a participation game using Action Men that did the rounds of the shows some (probably lots, my sense of the recent past is badly skewed) years ago?

  I’ve seen a game (probably at Historicon in 2015?) that used WW2 action figures like GI Joes (the Hasbro ones, not the big guys from much earlier) and the like, which was cool because you could change their pose without having to have a different figure to, say, have them prone or kneeling.  I think they were playing “Final Combat”.  It looked quite impressive, very detailed.  But I also would guess that sort of setup would cost much more than the same in 28mm.  The vehicles alone must have been a fortune.  But still, maybe time saved by not needing to paint the figures was worth while?

"I saw this in a cartoon once, but I'm pretty sure I can do it..."

[Paint it Pink]

Angel Barracks wrote:

But it has not changed, you have always been able to use any figures with any rules, that was kind of my point. So when people make a big thing of saying stuff like ‘you can use any figures with MY rules’, well yeah, ofc, your rules and all the other rules… It is this notion that somehow their rules are unique in this aspect, when it really very isn’t.

May I suggest you’re not putting yourself in the others shoes here.

People get hung up by all kinds of things. A set of rules that ostensibly says it’s written for 28mm figures set the assumption that is what your need. With experience, one realizes that the figure to ground scale is a hot mess, and in fact the rules would play better using 6mm models.

No prize for figuring out which set of rules I’m referring to here.

It’s all about what personally drives you in the hobby. Not everyone can be a wizard at painting, a strategist, or able to min-max the odds in ones favour, or for that matter design a set of rules. Horses for courses.

One is good, more is better
http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/
http://ashleyrpollard.blogspot.co.uk/

[Sane Max]

some truth to wot Paint it Pink Said*….. partly it’s just a nice little statement to save kids or the less cerebrally blessed  going ‘Yeah, but can i…?’

Of course, said kids and Stupids will still go ‘It says I kin play with any figure I like, but duz that mean I kin play with any figure I like?’

* minus the stuff about Ground Scale. Ground Scale obsession is not my thing, so no, I can’t guess which set of rules you’re referring to here 🙂

 

 

 

 

[Paint it Pink]

Sane Max wrote:

* minus the stuff about Ground Scale. Ground Scale obsession is not my thing, so no, I can’t guess which set of rules you’re referring to here

There goes the neighborhood. Probably need to revoke your wargame credentials too! 😉

Flames of War. Wall to wall tanks.

One is good, more is better
http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/
http://ashleyrpollard.blogspot.co.uk/

[Guy Farrish]

Fooled me!

I thought it was written for 15mm?

I was expecting Bolt Action – best of luck with their weapons ranges!

[Shahbahraz]

I’m an old fart too, been mucking about with figures & vehicles since it was Rocco Minitanks and really badly moulded Airfix WW2 figures.

These days I play a bunch of scales and rules, I don’t play GW, or either of the WW2 sets that claim to be ‘The WW2 Hobby’ – I buy figures I like, and use them for rules I like.

I don’t take the view that starter sets or whatever are infantilising players – it’s useful and  helpful, and hopefully many players that buy a starter set for something will go and do some reading, find out a bit more, and decide they want to try new things, or not. And that’s ok too.

I’ve written stuff for Slingshot, argued with Phil Barker, but I’ve also painted Dwarf Landwehr for a giggle, and I’m also currently trying to print out a 28mm Colonial Space Marines APC..   it’s a broad church, there’s plenty of room for all sorts of ways to enjoy the hobby. Or maybe it’s multiple hobbies in various combinations.

So as long as you have good friends to play with, the room to play and the toys to put on a table (or floor.. or lawn) have at it, and have fun

--An occasional wargames blog: http://aleadodyssey.blogspot.co.uk/ --

[jeffers]

I was happily using Timpo, Britains and Crescent figures together when I was three, so really cannot understand a mindset that works on an ‘x figures for x rules’ thing. It would just never occur to me. Mind you, I’m of the opinion that I build an army based and organised how I want and make the rules fit them. None of that rebasing nonsense.

And I have gamed platoon actions with 1/6 figures. Lots of fun!

More nonsense on my blog: http://battle77.blogspot.com/

[Sane Max]

Guy Farrish wrote:

Fooled me! I thought it was written for 15mm?

 

Yeah, me too. But it’s a ruleset that never took off at our Club, so I have never read it.  Screw wall to wall tanks, it was the on-table artillery that always made me gape. If that was originally written for 28mm colour me amused 🙂

 

[Paint it Pink]

Sane Max wrote:

Yeah, me too. But it’s a ruleset that never took off at our Club, so I have never read it. Screw wall to wall tanks, it was the on-table artillery that always made me gape. If that was originally written for 28mm colour me amused

It had a clever, too clever for its own good, logarithmic range mechanic that was in the abstract rather interesting, but the second order problem that arose that while the distance to the target may be compressed, so is the distance between ones own units. Hence five tanks stacked fender to fender because they’re distance apart is reduced just as the distance the target is compressed.

One is good, more is better
http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/
http://ashleyrpollard.blogspot.co.uk/

[Thuseld]

I have found this to be a really useful thread. So many of you are far more …experienced… than I had initially thought. Then again, I have been in and out of this hobby for 25 years now, but I started at age 7 or so. Maybe even 6, so I guess start age gives some context. I can’t believe I have been doing this for two decades. I got an old Airfix E-Type Jag kit for my 8th birthday, and while I was miffed it wasn’t a Tiger I, I guess it shows I was building kits at that age. Then I look at my almost 6 year old and wonder at what point I should try and play more complex games with her.

Experiments here: http://inexperiencedmodelmaker.blogspot.co.uk/

Tranquil Stars updates: https://tranquilstars.wordpress.com

[Shahbahraz]

Some of us are just old… and 6 years is old enough for Playmobil DBA or Fear & Faith.

As for FoW, well, how are they going to sell you artillery models if they can’t go on the table 😉

--An occasional wargames blog: http://aleadodyssey.blogspot.co.uk/ --

[Geof Downton]

If people choose to use ‘official’ models, I get that. After all most of us wouldn’t play Monopoly with chessmen or chess with Monopoly pieces. I really don’t care until somebody tells me I MUST use the official figures. At that point I either don’t play, or I obstinately play chess with dominoes…

One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

[Guy Farrish]

My Dad taught me chess using Swoppets, Herald and Cherilea knights and footsoldiers as pieces.

Official figures? Pah!

(We caved and bought a chess set eventually)

[Geof Downton]

Guy Farrish wrote:

My Dad taught me chess using Swoppets, Herald and Cherilea knights and footsoldiers as pieces.

Fair enough – they sound like perfectly good chess pieces to me. My dad could never have taught me to play chess with anything, he could have taught me how to make the set though; perhaps that’s why I’m more modeller than gamer…

One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

[Stephen Holmes]

Something that seems to have accompanied the move to “Starter Boxes” is the demise of house rules.

Grognards of more than 3 decade of “proper” gaming will recall house rule discussions on Usenet and the like. No self respecting gaming group played “rules as written” and house rules were barely worth the name unless their page count rivaled the actual rules.

Modern gamers seem to have avoided that obsession with “fixing” their rules. Maybe they are better indexed and edited, or maybe the trend is to play the game and quit grumbling.

We do still see the tinkerers, but these days their energies seem better spent extending or adapting rules: There’s a War of the Roses adaptation based on original WW2 rules. Also a cowboy gunfight based on some WW2 tank rules.

 

The main thing is to have fun!

[John D Salt]

Sane Max wrote:

I once read a complete article in Slingshot. It was three or four pages long. It was about how to get the best out of ARMY ‘A’ in the rules – and it went on and on…. slowly it dawned on me that nowhere in the article, the title or anywhere else in the Magazine was the name of the set of rules in question mentioned. Because there was only one set of Ancient Rules in the late 90’s apparently.

This caused me to recall, with a shudder, an incident that occurred shortly after I joined Exeter University Wargames Club in, oooh, 1978.

As a youthful fresher I had already got seven years of wargaming under my belt, so, when I was introduced to an existing member of the club, I expected to idle away a little time asking: do you do boardgames or just figures, ever tried D&D, done any naval, what’s your period, how did you get started in the hobby, that sort of thing. Not a bit of it. The established member — a second-year lawyer, as I recall — smiled and fixed me with eyes in which I think I detected the first glimmerings of insanity, then demanded “What 5,000-point army do you recommend to beat Seleucids?”

Didn’t even bother to specify fourth or fifth edition.

All the best,

John.

[willz]

All wargames rules are abstract by definition, due to space, distance and time.  So I plays with my toys and push them across the table for my own and other likeminded personal enjoyment.

[Shahbahraz]

Stephen Holmes wrote:

Something that seems to have accompanied the move to “Starter Boxes” is the demise of house rules. Grognards of more than 3 decade of “proper” gaming will recall house rule discussions on Usenet and the like. No self respecting gaming group played “rules as written” and house rules were barely worth the name unless their page count rivaled the actual rules.<snip>

I think the internet has to be held at least partly responsible for that. The community you talked to extended worldwide. Another part, there were also more rulesets appearing in conventions where you could play against players from across your country or other countries. Try taking your house rules to a competition?

Finally, yes, I think the quality of rules got better. One of my favourite rules companies produced early sets that were great fun, but frankly, had loopholes in them the size of elephants. You had to house rule to get through a game. Nowadays, the quality of the rules they produce is vastly more professional, better tested and much less in need of rulings/amendments/updates etc. I think rules are much more professional than they were even 10 years ago.

And if you showed the 1970s me, struggling to read mimeographed typeset, stapled between paper covers, a hard-bound glossy book with professional quality photographs, I would have been astonished. And naturally some people grumble…

Yesterday I cranked up the resin printer, ran off enough 15mm vehicles for Early War German & French forces from free 3d files, and sent them to a friend as a gift. That would have been unthinkable even three years ago. It is literally a wargaming golden age.

 

--An occasional wargames blog: http://aleadodyssey.blogspot.co.uk/ --

[Cerdic]

John D Salt wrote:

The established member — a second-year lawyer, as I recall — smiled and fixed me with eyes in which I think I detected the first glimmerings of insanity, then demanded “What 5,000-point army do you recommend to beat Seleucids?” Didn’t even bother to specify fourth or fifth edition. All the best, John.

…and today that man is a cabinet minister!

http://28mmreview.blogspot.co.uk

[ian pillay]

On the issue of playing with unpainted miniatures. I just tell my opponent that they are ‘mono chrome’ he doesn’t normally mind with this explanation. (I game solo 😉)

on a serious note, it’s nice to play with painted figures. I have long since decided that a fair to middling paint job is better than mono chrome any day.

Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

[irishserb]

This has been a really interesting thread.  I don’t have much to add, but offer the following observation about my time in the hobby:

In my first 20 years in the hobby, I was told by one person or another, that virtually everything I do within my hobby, I do incorrectly.  I was almost always told this by people who had been in the hobby a lot longer than me.

In the last 20 years, I’ve been told that virtually everything I do within my hobby, I do incorrectly, usually by people who have been in the hobby for far less time than me.

 

[ian pillay]

That made me smile. It’s a hobby and more importantly it’s a hobby that quite personal. I am sure back in the day people told Andy Warhol that his art was all wrong before they created the pop art movement 😂

I am guessing that you still do it all ‘wrong’ but still get a lot of enjoyment from it. That’s the main thing for me, it’s my hobby and I get my enjoyment from it even if I am doing it wrong.

Tally-Ho! Check out my blog at…..
http://steelcitywargaming.wordpress.com/

[Geof Downton]

irishserb, my experience of a 32 year career in nursing was much the same. There was a bit in the middle when I was wrong according to both extremes of experience! I suspect it is true of all things…

One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

[Geof Downton]

…of course, I have never ever thought that anyone is wrong, neither have I told them so…

One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off.
Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

[Not Connard Sage]

ian pillay wrote:

That made me smile. It’s a hobby and more importantly it’s a hobby that quite personal. I am sure back in the day people told Andy Warhol that his art was all wrong before they created the pop art movement I am guessing that you still do it all ‘wrong’ but still get a lot of enjoyment from it. That’s the main thing for me, it’s my hobby and I get my enjoyment from it even if I am doing it wrong.

 

The pop art movement was already rolling when Warhol jumped aboard, but that’s neither here nor there. If anyone’s got any Roy Lichtenstein originals they don’t want I’ll take them off your hands. 🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Author]

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