Spears and axes

[Deleted User]

I don’t think enough of our miniature Ancient & Medieval warriors carry spears. Surely, this was the default weapon for the majority of fighters in every pre-gunpowder culture?

However, I digress…..

Tumbling Dice sent me a pack of their Dark Age mounted Saxons. The horses are lovely: short, little furry beasts of no great beauty.

As per usual with TD, I also got a pile of weapons. Enough spears for all, a couple of swords & two, long hafted axes. I really don’t know enough about the period but axes? No doubt, they’d look good epoxied onto the hands of two of the Saxons but surely this is an unlikely weapon for cavalry? I

 

I await to be informed.

 

donald

[Mike Headden]

I have always been lead to believe that Saxon horse were mounted infantry, not cavalry, dismounting to fight. So, not so outlandish to have 2H axes.

Presumably you have something else as well, so you can fight mounted if necessary. Otherwise I suspect you are at least as dangerous to your own side as to the enemy!!

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Alan Hamilton]

My reading of older and of current research opinion is that horses were far more common in all armies that was once thought.  This comes from the archaeology of pagan burials.  So it depends on when your model forces are supposed to depict real forces.  The long axe was less common early and became increasinly common as the “dark ages” progressed.  I would suggest that if you have Saxons (or anyone) fighting mounted the least likely weapon would be a two handed or long shafted axe.

My brother and 2 nephews are “Viking Re-enactors” and, having handled various weapons for many years they tell me that the long axe takes an enormous amount of strength and control.  It is almost impossible to use effectively in a shield wall or a close packed melee.  There simply not enough space to swing it.  However, it is frightening and can be effective in a loose combat where there is space for sweeping blows.  They have not tried using from a horse but imaging if the axe swing is dodged?  Then the momentum of the axe continues until it hits something – ground, horse or companion.  So I revert to what I call “military probablility” for mounted combat where the weapons favoured by cavalry for centuries are javelins, spears, swords and later lances and bows.

Historically?  I do not think we will ever have definite answer before we have access to a time machine.  So if and when I do get around to making some “Saxon Cavalry” some might have a long axe but it will be slung somewhere or strapped to a packhorse with the rest of his gear.   But they are much more likely to have swords, javelins and a few throwing or stabbing spears.

 

[Deleted User]

Mike Headden wrote:

I have always been lead to believe that Saxon horse were mounted infantry, not cavalry, dismounting to fight. !

You must have missed the recent thread here on this. I was convinced Saxon cavalry were a possibility.

donald

[Deleted User]

Ignoring the mounted state, I would think a short hafted axe would be quite an effective weapon. You could still use a shield, it requires less finesse than a sword but still has a formidable impact.  It would seem a useful weapon once you’d moved within the arc of a spear armed opponent.

Could we discuss the wargaming use of “mounted infantry”?

Over the years, I’ve gone to the considerable trouble of producing duplicate figures eg Mycenaeans on foot and in chariot. Despite what history might say, war gamers are reluctant to dismount figures unless there is a huge advantage in doing so. Most dismounted substitutes stay “in the box”. My various mounted British figures for the AZW do dismount because dismounted fire is so much more effective but otherwise most mounted/dismounted troops stay mounted for the increased mobility.

I haven’t, yet, ordered duplicate foot huscarls for my pony riding Saxons. I may not bother.

I wonder if there isn’t a certain amount of historical fact in this? How hard was it to get troops to get out of the chariot, off the camel or horse? It’s certainly hard to get a war gamer to do this.

Donald

 

[Not Connard Sage]

It’s probably just a random mix of weapons that someone stuffed into the package. You’re over thinking it.

🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[OB]

There is a fairly sound reference to Angles using axes in combat from a 7th Century Welsh poem.  Marwnad Cynndylan if my memory is holding up.  It’s not possible to establish if they were long hafted axes or otherwise but almost certainly they were using axes.  I’m using fairly and almost here because it’s remotely possible that it’s the Welsh using them but the scholars think otherwise.

OB
http://withob.blogspot.co.uk/

[Alan Hamilton]

The Merovingians used throwing axes (the securis francisca) around 500 – 800 (ish) AD.  The various peoples along the south coast traded and moved relatively freely across the Channel and so may well have been familiar with them.  Any mercenaries or settlers may well have brought them as well.  Also no doubt axes were in use for chopping wood around the farms and towns so thet were probably used as hand weapons.  Maybe even the tree felling long axes were used as well.

From my reading the most common weapon was the spear with swords being a sign of wealth and a status symbol.

Now as for “mounted infantry”.  This terminology is probably not helpful as it reflects a relatively modern concept “combat arms” specialism.  In the period we are discussing there were vey wealthy warriors (Kings, princes, lords or whatever), wealthy warriors (land owners, professional soldiers etc), Common Folk (spearmen) and youths/poor (slingers, javelins. bows etc).

The Very Wealthy may have had enough wealth to maintain a war horse (long time in training) and riding horses, the wealthy probably could afford a riding horse but the others were unlikely to own one.  The draught animals were usually oxen.

Applying this to wargames the leaders of the army and the best equipped (wealthy) warriors may well have ridden to war.  They definitely fought on foot and several poems and sources suggest that they may well have fought mounted throwing javelins and spears at the enemy to goad them or weaken them before retiring to dismount and take their place in the front ranks of the army.  Some, those on trained war horses, may well have fought from the saddle against foot soldiers or other cavalry.  They were not cavalry or mounted infantry in the modern sense but mounted warriors capable of operating as missile (javelin and throwing spear) troops on horseback with a few capable of actually fighting mounted against their opponents.

So in my forces (on the painting table today) are mounted warriors with matching warriors on foot.  Most are spear armed but will be assumed to have a javelin or two in a wargame.

I am working on modifying our club rules and thinking that the chaps on riding horses might gain +1 bonus in melee with an “evade” capability and those on war horses have a terror infliction in the charge and also a +2 bonus in melee.  I found it difficult to get exact matches but since the two will never appear simultaneously only a general similarity of colour and dress is needed with an identical shield pattern.  We have played many medieval wargames where the knights dismount and fight on foot (battles, sieges) or mount to pursue or charge.

[Ruarigh]

I’m substantially with Alan on this. If they are using two-handed axes, they will have to dismount to use them effectively, so give the mounted guys swords and spears, and maybe strap the axes to their backs or to their pack horses. I particularly agree with the notion that modern concepts of ‘combat arms’ obscure older practice because the terminology we use shapes our approach to understanding it. I don’t really have a solution for that though.

I can’t speak for Anglo-Saxon England on this, but in a Scandinavian context one-handed axes are one of the most common weapons/tools found in graves. The only problem is deciding whether it was buried as one or both of those options. There was a PhD on it at some point in the past few years that used this fact to argue for different types of warfare emerging in Norway, or something like that

On the subject of having matching mounted and dismounted troops, I’m generally in the habit of having both for completeness’ sake. Even if you don’t dismount the troops when they start mounted, you can field the dismounted versions in a subsequent battle as the same troops and build their story that way.

Never argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

https://roderickdale.co.uk/
https://emidsvikings.ac.uk/

[Deleted User]

You’re all going to love this………

The rules for the Dark Ages I am writing are a battle, not skirmish set. It needs the perhaps artificial concept of “units” to work. This means the size/power of units needs to fit into a framework that gives some sense of balance. Thus the somewhat cavalry heavy Romano-British have small units of mounted figures to give the generally more powerful cavalry a weakness. Around 4 figures a unit as opposed to 20 foot figures for levy spearman or 8 for more skilled and better armoured foot warriors.

This allows any unit some chance at victory in combat with various combat modifiers and the dice providing a latitude. Nothing radically different there but I can’t see any other way to make things work as a game.

So, specifically for the mounted Saxons, they have some power as a mounted force of 4 figures against a similar number of mounted enemies and a larger number of infantry foes.

If they dismount, they’re a titchy 4 figures pitted against a much larger number of foot enemies or a similar number but superior mounted foe. Nearly inevitable defeat. Why would you dismount? I can monkey around with the modifiers but the basic system of equity will influence the issue no matter how much I wiggle.

As I am only giving the Saxons 2 mounted units it’s not a game changer but I am going to have to give the matter more thought.

 

donald

 

[Deleted User]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

It’s probably just a random mix of weapons that someone stuffed into the package. You’re over thinking it.

The whole of my post, above, is a prime example of over thinking.

donald

 

[Deleted User]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

You’re over thinking it.

Clearly.

Isnt that the point of the hobby? Overthinking something essentially unimportant for the fun of doing so?

[Ruarigh]

So, two of your mounted units can dismount as one of your better quality foot units. That seems like a reasonable approach given that it is most likely to be the better units that were mounted anyway, and especially if mounted or dismounted is decided at set-up and not changed during the battle.

Never argue with an idiot. They'll only drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

https://roderickdale.co.uk/
https://emidsvikings.ac.uk/

[Patrice]

Deleted User wrote:

specifically for the mounted Saxons, they have some power as a mounted force of 4 figures against a similar number of mounted enemies and a larger number of infantry foes. If they dismount, they’re a titchy 4 figures pitted against a much larger number of foot enemies or a similar number but superior mounted foe. Nearly inevitable defeat. Why would you dismount?

Um, if you are on horseback and not too much confident to fight so and you feel that your horse is a bit afraid (so you don’t “have some power as a mounted force”) but you are well trained to fight on foot, you won’t hesitate for long (or it means that your ruleset is encouraging this?).

I’ve been in a few reenactments and also LARPs (although certainly not real war) both on foot and on horseback. When you’re on foot you’re afraid of cavalry when they are coming. But… when you are on horseback, if you’re not a very good rider (I’m not) and if you feel that your horse is afraid of infantrymen shouting and waving their arms (as they were) you are certainly not happy to fight on horseback, especially if you know that you could fight very well on foot.

http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
https://www.anargader.net/

[Alan Hamilton]

The few descriptions (in translation) I have read are pretty vague about detail but imply that most mounted warriors were the military elite of their day.  So I cannot be specific or pedantic and it is very unsafe to apply modern terminology, attitudes and behaviour to the “Dark Age” warriors.  They were able and confident warriors with reputations to live up to and increase.  They were the “boy racers” and celebrities of their day.  The poems and stories seem to imply that the mounted men on campaign were raiders and scouts who collected plunder and information.  In battle they were the role models of the rest of the army.  Poems like the Goddodin imply that when the riders went into battle on horseback they would ride up to the enemy and hurl javelins and spears to break up formations.  They seldon charged home except in pursuit of a broken enemy.  It is worth remembering that the main ranged weapons were javelins and slings.

So our model Saxon horsemen (and Picts, Britons, Strathclyders etc) might be present as mounted javelinmen who ride up to the enemy line and harass them.  Some of the kingdoms made more use of horses than others and some may well have retained Roman training long enough to have “shock” cavalry as in Bernard Cornwell’s novels (and my model army).   This is much easier to replicate in wargames where there is more emphasis on the individual rather units/warbands.

[Not Connard Sage]

Deleted User wrote:

Not Connard Sage wrote:

You’re over thinking it.

Clearly. Isnt that the point of the hobby? Overthinking something essentially unimportant for the fun of doing so?

 

I’m more of an Occam’s Razor bloke meself. 🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Deleted User]

Alan Hamilton wrote:

The few descriptions (in translation) I have read are pretty vague about detail but imply that most mounted warriors were the military elite of their day. So I cannot be specific or pedantic and it is very unsafe to apply modern terminology, attitudes and behaviour to the “Dark Age” warriors. They were able and confident warriors with reputations to live up to and increase. They were the “boy racers” and celebrities of their day. The poems and stories seem to imply that the mounted men on campaign were raiders and scouts who collected plunder and information. In battle they were the role models of the rest of the army. Poems like the Goddodin imply that when the riders went into battle on horseback they would ride up to the enemy and hurl javelins and spears to break up formations. They seldon charged home except in pursuit of a broken enemy. It is worth remembering that the main ranged weapons were javelins and slings. So our model Saxon horsemen (and Picts, Britons, Strathclyders etc) might be present as mounted javelinmen who ride up to the enemy line and harass them. Some of the kingdoms made more use of horses than others and some may well have retained Roman training long enough to have “shock” cavalry as in Bernard Cornwell’s novels (and my model army). This is much easier to replicate in wargames where there is more emphasis on the individual rather units/warbands.

There is much to process here. I really need to run a number of solo test games to see what things look like. This is impossible now but is on the agenda for the future.

Donald

[John D Salt]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

I’m more of an Occam’s Razor bloke meself. 🙂

Doesn’t really have enough reach for a mounted weapon, in my opinion.

All the best,

John.

[Deleted User]

I saw a thing on youtube one time, it was probably on misconception with swords. It said around that period spears and axe were the thing. I also remember way back in history class, Battle of Hasting, something about double handed axe cleaving through the rider and the horse. For cavalry though I vote spears.

Might have been from this channel, its the most recent one browsed.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMjlDOf0UO9wSijFqPE9wBw/videos

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