Dragoons with sticks?

[Magnus Guild]

Am I the only person who is mystified by this description of Russian uhlan regiments converted from dragoon regiments.  First, what source is it from?  Secondly, does it refer to their attire, or, as I suspect, they weren’t very good lancers.

[OotKust]

hi

Well, where did you get it from?
Is any, or can any, ‘transferred’ unit skills be any good until re-trained? I’d postulate not.

On hold till then….

[Patrice]

I heard (very long ago) that a guy in Paris had wanted to play Napoleonics with a unit of cuirassiers-lanciers in his army.

He said that he made a mistake when ordering the miniatures and ordered a whole unit of cuirassiers standard-bearers and that he had to use them somehow.

His friends were not convinced and thought he just wanted to take advantage of both tactical modifiers. It was with “Les Aigles“ ruleset I think.

(Ooops, off-topic, sorry) 😉

 

http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
https://www.anargader.net/

[OotKust]

Patrice wrote:

His friends were not convinced and thought he just wanted to take advantage of both tactical modifiers. It was with “Les Aigles“ ruleset I think.

Hilarious! Polish cavalry 1939? Oops sorry me too! While we’re waiting for Magnus…

 

[Bandit]

Magnus Guild wrote:

Am I the only person who is mystified by this description of Russian uhlan regiments converted from dragoon regiments.  First, what source is it from?  Secondly, does it refer to their attire, or, as I suspect, they weren’t very good lancers.

Maybe I’m confused, the Russians do convert a handful of dragoon units to uhlans, that’s pretty well documented. But they also aren’t the only ones to do so. The Russians also issue lances to a portion of each of their hussar regiments beginning in late 1812. The French also convert a bunch of dragoons and some chasseurs à cheval to lancers. So, I feel like I’m missing something in the question.

[Heroy]

Probably more than anyone cares to read, but ….

Russian dragoons were “heavy cavalry” (тяжелая кавалерiя / tyazhelaya kavaleriya). The type was traditionally considered “ethnically” or “nationally” Russian. Army dragoon troopers’ horses were at least 151 cm tall at the withers (almost 14 hands) and cost 50 rubles. They were typically from state-owned studs in central and northern European Russia. Their saddlery was of the so-called “Hungarian” type adopted in 1786, somewhat similar to French light cavalry saddles. Normal conscription of serfs applied.

Uhlans were light cavalry (легкая кавалерiя / legkaya kavaleriya). The Russians traditionally considered uhlans to be an “ethnic” or “national” cavalry type of Poles, Tatars, Ukrainians and Cossacks. Army uhlan troopers’ horses were at least 142 cm (14 hands) tall and cost 40 rubles. Their stud farms were typically in southern European Russia and northern Ukraine, and included bloodlines from Native steppe horse breeds. Their saddlery was of the so-called “Hussar” type, somewhat similar to Cossack saddles. Typically these were recruited from non-serf populations by (more or less) volunteer enlistment.

The 5 initial Russian Army uhlan regiments :
— Lithuania, Polish & Tatar uhlans : recruited from (respectively) Orthodox Slavs, Catholic Slavs & Moslem Tatars of the former Polish-Lithuania Commonwealth
— Volhynia uhlans : recruited in north-west Ukraine
— Chuguev uhlans : recruited from Chuguev Cossack settlements just south-east of Kharkov

The conversion of 7 Army dragoon regiments to uhlans was ordered in December 1812. The choice of units to convert seem to have respected “ethnic” traditions to some extent.
— Yamburg dragoons : raised 1806 in north central Ukraine – called to north-west European Russia in 1811 with a recruit depot at Podgroshchi near Novgorod – served with the 1st Separate corps (defending the Russians’ north flank) in 1812
— Siberia & Orenburg dragoons : had been recruited locally in (respectively) central Siberia & south-west Siberia from independent Cossacks and used in small detachments on the eastern frontiers – called to west European Russia in 1811 with a recruit depot at Yelna near Smolensk – served as Reserve Cavalry with the 1st Western army in 1812
— Zhitomir & Serpukhov dragoons : raised in (respectively) 1805 in north central Ukraine & 1806 in south-east Ukraine – served with the 3rd Reserve Obervation army in north-west Ukraine in 1812
— Vladimir & Taganrog dragoons : had been recruited from among Cossacks locally and in south-east Ukraine for service in small detachments in the Caucasus – transferred to the Crimea in 1812

The idea of “dragoons with sticks” may stem from the fact that the units remained in the field on campaign while converting, some quite possibly getting lances before changing uniforms, horses or saddlery. However, the units previously deployed in Siberia and the Caucasus and any recruits in the Zhitomir, Serpukhov or Yamburg uhlans from Cossack families would have had some prior experience with the lance.

By August 1814 the “ethnic” character of the 12 uhlan regiments seems to have greatly diminished. They were then organized with 2 regiments per uhlan brigade, 2 brigades per uhlan division – and these three divisions each paired with a cuirassier division to form the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Reserve Cavalry corps. These 3 corps were based in European Russia in military settlement areas, which also served as their main recruiting territory.

Perhaps interestingly, the initial intended mission for the French Army lancer unts formed from 1811 by converting dragoons was also to combine with heavy cavalry : 1 regiment of lancers per heavy cavalry division of 4 regiments of cuirassiers or carabiniers à cheval.

[Skip]

If nothing else this thread finally got me to register here.

I have the entire Western Army of Borodino in 15mm-18mm 1 to 60.

Happy accident had to fill out weakly figured Dragoon units of this Army with uhlans so have a couple mixed figure units. Quite possibly new recruits could get uniforms of the changed designation and existing squadrons would have old uniforms.

But either way no matter what the figure is rate them how the scenario requires.

[Tony S]

Probably more than anyone cares to read, but …

Absolutely not!  I for one was fascinated with your brief, but highly detailed history.  Any idea why uhlan horses were cheaper? They seem to be the same size, well, minimum size anyway.  Breeding not as good?

And welcome Skip Smoker!  That sounds like quite an impressive force you’ve got raised.

[Skip]

<p style=”text-align: right;”>A few recent readings tells me Russia had no problems with horse availability,  hence quite possible Dragoon horses from Russia could be much larger that other countries</p>

[Jim Webster]

Heroy wrote:

Probably more than anyone cares to read,

 

Absolutely not, fascinating and I don’t do a lot of Napoleonic 🙂

https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

[Magnus Guild]

Further, to my earlier comments, I was asking two questions. First, was this a bad case of ‘internet history’ repeated until it becomes accepted (a problem not peculiar to the internet); and from a verifiable source: what did they look like?

[Heroy]

“new recruits could get uniforms of the changed designation”
Maybe for recruits arriving to the regiments in late 1813 or early 1814 – but some of the whole regiments would getting re-equipped by then (see below). The new troopers delivered in 1812 and early 1813 would be from the inductions of 1811 and 1812 and have been uniformed, equipped and horsed as dragoons at their recruit depots. Russians tried pretty hard to avoid sending un-trained personnel or untrained horses to the “front” and to avoid issues of uniforms or equipment to less than a full regiment.

“uhlan horses …. seem to be the same size”
Sorry, please forgive a foreigner for a small typo with English measures. It should be : “dragoon horse …. at least 151 cm tall at the withers (almost **15** hands)”

“was this a bad case of ‘internet history’”
Well – it did likely happen in 1813 that some of the 7 converted dragoon regiments received lances and no other element of the conversion. But, given the recruiting and history of the units, they probably had little trouble in employing the new weapon.

The Serpukhov uhlans were brigaded with Tatar & Chuguev uhlans since June 1813 under General Major Freiherr Karl Friedrich (Bogdanovich) von Knorring and later detached to the Austrian Army of Bohemia. So, no shortage of lance instructors.

By September 1813, 5 of the 7 converted units were in the Russian Reserve Army under General of Cavalry Bennigsen (Orenburg, Vladimir, Taganrog, Siberia & Zhitomir regiments).

The Yamburg regiment remained listed as “dragoons” through May 1813, when they returned to Russia for conversion to uhlans. The other regiments began to be listed as uhlans during the Spring of 1813. The Serpukhov, Vladimir and the Orenburg regiments appear to have been returned to Russia shortly before Leipzig. After Leipzig, the Taganrog, Siberia and Zhitomir regiments joined the seige of Hamburg and returned to Russia only after the peace.

“what did they look like?”
Russian forces looked increasingly “non-regulation” from the winter of 1812/1813 through to the capture of Paris in 1814. The cavalry would be all in gray riding “overalls” worn over short “jack boots”. Lost/broken dragoon helmets were not likely replaced with regularity, leaving some troopers in forage caps (dark green with with the band the same as the coat collar). Something much like a green dragoon’s coat could be made from an infantry coat. Greatcoats, cloaks and capes could be almost anything from white to middle gray and of various designs. The quality and condition of the horses and saddlery was likely mostly maintained. Muskets had been withdrawn from dragoon units from August 1812. They retained 16 rifles per squadron for flankers, which were also likely used by some NCO’s. Some troopers might have had light cavalry sabers instead of regulation straight broadswords. The Vladimir and Taganrog regiments (from the Caucasus) had long been equipped with only light cavalry sabers, and possibly were never fully equipped with helmets. The Orenburg, Siberia and Zhitomir regiments had Austrian broadswords “liberated” in 1809. The Yamburg regiment had the new Model 1811 Russian broadswords. The Serpukhov regiment had older Russian broadswords.
It is unlikely that any of the 7 converted units were fully re-equipped as uhlans until they returned to Russia.

Distinctives from November 1811 (as dragoons)
— Siberia : white collars, white cuffs & shoulder straps, white buttons
— Orenburg : black collars, black cuffs & shoulder straps, yellow buttons
— Vladimir : green piped white collars, white cuffs & shoulder straps, yellow buttons
— Taganrog : green piped rose collars, rose cuffs & shoulder straps, white buttons
— Zhitomir : red piped white collars, red piped white cuffs & shoulder straps, white buttons
— Serpukhov : green piped yellow collars , yellow cuffs & shoulder straps, yellow buttons
— Yamburg : green piped red collars, red cuffs & shoulder straps, white buttons

[OotKust]

Nice to see some other accounts in my 24 hour absence.

I’d avoided mentioning or comparing with ‘the French’ re-designation of various units, but apart from the obvious, new weapons, new tactics (ie more efficient scouting/screening…), changed uniforms; did they change horse sizes? Eh? Did they change manpower? Eh?

No it would be ridiculous to say a regiment changed everything, or else it wasn’t a ‘reassignment’ at all.

I believe such units would have been less as normally effective- making their use for wargamers that much more distasteful if of lower value.

Yes the issue of lances to the front rank of Russian hussars squadrons probably was effective given their greater control and numeric advantages post 1812. But everything has a ‘learning period’.

I’ve thrown rule ‘systems’ and manipulated OBs some shade for utilising French in Russia/ Europe without the cuirassier/ heavy brigades they were attached too. They were designated employed as the eyes, ears and protection for the heavy regiments, and as such should be mutually present. That doesn’t always fit with ‘systems’- instead of history being the guide for how they were employed.

The point made, where did Magnus get this in the first place?

cheers

[Tony S]

Sorry, please forgive a foreigner for a small typo with English measures. It should be : “dragoon horse …. at least 151 cm tall at the withers (almost **15** hands)”

Ha!  Completely my fault!  Actually it’s a bit revealing that my brain didn’t see the height in cm at all, but rather jumped directly to “hands,”.

Thanks for your clarification over my inability to read, and again – thanks for all your fascinating historical tidbits.

[Magnus Guild]

I enjoyed the story of the unit made up entirely of cuirassier standard bearers. Indeed, using dragoon standard bearers was how I imagined you would  do it.  As you will gather, I am interested in their appearance: are they still wearing their dragoon coats and helmets? And(more importantly) is there any contemporary evidence either documentary or pictorial to substantiate that appearance.  Just because somebody has been issued with a lance does not make them a lancer.  The grey overalls were normal campaign attire for all Russian cavalry regiments .  For the  record my  1813  uhlans( interestingly the Serpuchev, Tatar, and Chuguyev regiments), the first has ordinary tack, the others the Hungarian bridle and the Serpuchev, blue shabraques and kurtkas (not to mention czapkas) ‘liberated’ from Polish depots.  This an educated guess not substantiated by documentary evidence.  Welcome to the joys of doing 1813-4 Russians.

[Heroy]

The Siberia, Orenburg, Serpukhov and Zhitomir regiments were disbanded in 1851, and thus lack published regimental histories. The Vladimir and Taganrog regiments have only a short “outline” regimental history where the conversion is not discussed in detail.

The fate of the Serpukovets’ standards was the same as for the Yamburg regiment : return of dragoon standards in late Spring 1813, possible re-issue of 2 color standards in 1814.

The Yamburg regiment has a full (almost 850 pages) regimental history. It adds lots of detail on their conversion to uhlans.
The day the conversion was ordered in December 1812 was the day that the surviving members of the “active” squadrons entered Germany. They were soon joined by the survivors of the Replacement squadron, which had participated in the defense of Riga. Losses led to consolidation from 6 squadrons per establishment to three. The “nominal” parts of the conversion to uhlans occurred by early February 1813, the officers receiving “cavalry” ranks (vice the “infantry” ranks used in dragoon regiments). The regiment was assigned to the siege of Danzig.
They had left their non-combatants, inventory of materials and most of their wagons in various places in Belarus and Courland during the campaign of 1812. In early 1813, they had only one apprentice artificer in the field who they then set to work making lances, but he was repeatedly called away to repair the mix of firearms in use by the the Tula and Kaluga opolchenie. Their uniform coats were literally falling apart and they could not buy material to make kurtkas locally, but the army staff managed to arrange for a shipment of blue clothe from Prussian stocks. However, the shipment was actually delivered to Prussians in Pomerania. The regiment wore their greatcoats, cutting the skirts and long cuffs to make short jackets of increasingly threadbare material as the weather warmed. They cut down their jack boots to shoes to get leather for patching.
In May and June the regiment sent their remaining dragoon helmets to the Riga dragoons (and then wore forage caps) and turned in their dragoon standards. They were chided by the ministry in Petersburg for not making clothe Cossack-style “pillows” for their saddles. The commander responded that they had not received remounts or uhlan saddles and that their blue Prussian clothe was still “missing”.
From mid-year, the regiment’s non-combatants, materials, remounts and new replacements were being collected in Brest-Litovsk. I thought the regiment returned at this time for conversion. Actually, the “regiment”, reduced to 2 squadrons, continued in a Combined cavalry regiment until the end of the siege of Danzig in November.
Finally collected in Brest-Litovsk in early 1814, the real conversion to uhlans was finally accomplished and the regiment sent to the Reserve corps in Volhynia, caserned at Lutsk, in the Spring. It is possible (sources differ) that 2 of their former color standards were returned at this time.
So overall, the conversion of the Yamburg regiment was pretty much a disaster. Except that the “regiment” in the field, described by the commander as “neither dragoons nor uhlans”, did slowly equip with lances (no pennons) over the spring of 1813 and, looking more like partizans than cavalry, fought like demons, the officers and troopers being showered with awards, in the siege of Danzig until the “regiment” was almost fully attrited away.
It seems that re-training the men in the field in the use of the lance was either un-needed, un-eventful or very slowly accomplished over the year 1813 as lances were fabricated. The question of re-training was not mentioned in the regimental history.

[Jim Webster]

Now I’d love to see them deployed on the wargames table in a 1813 game 🙂

https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

Read somewhere that French Cuirassiers, it was postulated, ought to have had a lance and that only a conservative traditional association with lances as a light cavalry weapon prevented it.  Don’t know how valid it was.

Mick Hayman
Margate and New Orleans

[Heroy]

Did the Spanish unit in the Peninsula that wore captured French cuirasses also have lances ?

Marmont proposed cuirassier lanciers in a work published in 1845.
https://books.google.com/books?id=iTRFAAAAYAAJ

Silly Russians did cuirassier-uhlans in the 1830’s
https://repository.library.brown.edu/viewers/image/zoom/bdr:248240/

Silly Prussians did cuirassier-uhlans in the 1890’s
https://64.media.tumblr.com/91d4ceb599c429f8a1b909c14766cb26/tumblr_pcy6bip8qb1rtv2o1o1_1280.jpg

[Bandit]

Heroy wrote:

The Siberia, Orenburg, Serpukhov and Zhitomir regiments were disbanded in 1851, and thus lack published regimental histories.

In 1851 or 1815? (just clarifying).

Heroy wrote:

Did the Spanish unit in the Peninsula that wore captured French cuirasses also have lances ?

Don’t believe so, it was a Spanish dragoon regiment. There are different versions of this that I’ve read, the least believable is that they took the cuirasses from the French cuirassiers after defeating them in combat, however, the French don’t take enough losses to have provided nearly enough cuirasses. The more likely version I’ve also heard is that the French – not wanting to die of heat exhaustion – had the bulk of their cuirasses in the regimental baggage train and that store was captured and distributed amongst a portion of the Spanish dragoon regiment in question.

Heroy wrote:

Probably more than anyone cares to read, but ….

Not at all! Fantastic stuff.

[Heroy]

1851 ….

1775 General-Lieutenant Freiherr Clapier de Colongue’s dragoons, formed from the dragoon commands of the Light Field cohorts in Siberia
1777 Siberia dragoons
1798 General-of-Cavalry Marquis du Houx de Vioménil’s dragoons
1799 General-Major Prince Odoyevsky’s dragoons
1800 General-Major Ziman’s dragoons
1801 Siberia dragoons
1812 Siberia uhlans
1851 disbanded, troopers sent into General-of-Cavalry Count Nikitin’s uhlans & the Novoarkhangelsk uhlans

1784 Orenburg dragoons, formed from the Orenburg and the Black Sea Field battalions
1798 General-Major Voyevodsky’s dragoons
1801 Orenburg dragoons
1812 Orenburg uhlans
1851 disbanded, troopers sent into Grand-Duke Karl-Ferdinand of Austria’s uhlans & Grand-Duke Leopold of Austria’s uhlans

1805 Zhitomir dragoons, formed from 1 squadron each of the Glukhov cuirassiers, the Tver dragoons, the Pereyaslavl dragoons and the Smolensk dragoons, and recruits
1812 Zhitomir uhlans
1815 Borisoglebsk uhlans
1844 Prince Alexander of Hess-Darmstadt’s uhlans
1851 disbanded, troopers sent into the Novomirgorod uhlans

1806 Serpukhov dragoons, formed from 2 squadrons of the Siberia dragoons and recruits
1812 Serpukhov uhlans
1845 Her Imperial Majesty Grand-Duchess Maria Mikhaylovna’s uhlans
1846 Her Imperial Majesty Grand-Duchess Yekaterina Mikhaylovna’s uhlans
1851 disbanded, troopers sent into the Yelisavetgrad uhlans

[Bandit]

@Heroy

Very cool! Thank you for sharing.

[Magnus Guild]

While it would be dangerous to generalise from the case of one regiment. Heroy’s  account of the Yamburg regiment  is both both interesting and possibly more indicative of more general trends.  I must admit to rather liking the image of a unit in greatcoats(whether in full or cut-down form)and forage caps.  It might be a little difficult to source figures as I don’t seem to remember great number of greatcoated figures.  In 28mm plastic is a possibility but would in- volve rather a lot of work. If you insist on the dragoon helmets you could buy several greatcoated dragoon standard- bearers, which does seem to bring us full-circle back to our unit of cuirassier standard-bearers.  More importantly note the lack of  size of the Yamburg regiment( are your cavalry regiments overly large?) and the way this incompletely equipped unit was parked with a besieging force.

[Heroy]

For the reviews by the Tsar in and around Paris after the peace in 1814, the worst-dressed units were sent out on patrols. The remaining ones resorted expedients such as putting the better uniformed men in the front rank, painting faded uniforms and handing uniforms from unit to unit ahead of the progress of the dignetaries.

Although quite spit-and-polish in peacetime, on campaign the Russians focused on ammunition (or the materials to make same), food, fodder, trained recruits & trained remounts, and weapons repair/replacement. And by late 1813, they were looking quite shabby, but were still quite combat effective.

 

[Author]

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