Modern WW2 battles

[GeoffQRF]

Inspired by a thread on the WW2 board, I said I fancied redoing some WW2 battles but replaying it with cold war/modern kit.

Which of the classic set piece WW2 battles would you try with modern forces? (Obviously with current political alliances suspended!)

Could modern West Germans make a dent in Stalingrad? (Now called Volgograd)

Would the Italians be able to hold their own in the western desert?

Could the Bundeswher repel a Marine amphibious force in Normandy?

Would a modern Kursk just be a blood bath?

QRF Models Limited
www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

[Russell Phillips]

Ooh, that’s an interesting question. Personally I’ve always wanted to do a Cold War-era Market Garden, with the Soviets attacking and Brits defending. I’ve never had anywhere near enough toys or space to do it justice, though.

Military history author
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[Rod Robertson]

Geoff:

Gembloux or Hannut in Belgium with VAB’s, AMX-10P’s, Le Clercs and AMX-30B2’s versus German Marders, Tpz’s, Leopard I’s and II’s would be very interesting. Milans and HOT’s instead of 25mm, 47mm and 75mm guns would be fun. Mirages vs Tornadoes would be grand. I’m not sure where helicopters would fit in however. Maybe seizing the bridges at Breda by heliborne assault?

Cheers and good gaming.

Rod Robertson.

 

[Iain Fuller]

I’m liking these suggestions so far! It is one of the reasons I’ve gone down the alt-history route for my Cold War/early 90’s project. The possibility for ‘re-doing’ WW2 with modern kit.

Western Desert for me: Brits in Chieftains/Challies, South Africans in Ratels with Olifant tanks, ANZACS in LAV’s (or Ratels/Grizzly’s maybe?), Italians in OF-40’s (could be a possibility?) or Leopard 1’s and maybe let them have Centauro’s and last but not least a Bundeswehr DAK, what’s not to like about that!

Aircraft might be a bit tricky, there’d definitely be a lot of Tornadoes knocking about.

[Ivan Sorensen]

That sounds ridiculously fun!

Are you simply swapping out units 1 to 1 or are we factoring in current troop strengths?

Now I /really/ want to do Abrams vs Leopard 2 in the bocage.

[Victoria Dickson]

Russell Phillips wrote:

Ooh, that’s an interesting question. Personally I’ve always wanted to do a Cold War-era Market Garden, with the Soviets attacking and Brits defending. I’ve never had anywhere near enough toys or space to do it justice, though.

Would you use airdrops or switch it to airmobile forces?

http://crazywargames.blogspot.co.uk/

[kyoteblue]

I like this idea !!!

[GeoffQRF]

Dunno. Whatever works.

I suspect any force would need moderating as certain modern forces are now way more powerful, in comparison to their historical counterparts and opponents, so the orbat may need changing.

Why not pick one and see?

Any moderate sized desert conflict or French bocage we have a WW2 orbat for that we can port across and see how it looks?

QRF Models Limited
www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

[Russell Phillips]

Victoria Dickson wrote:

Would you use airdrops or switch it to airmobile forces?

I’ve never got close enough to making it a reality to really consider that question. I’d probably have paratroopers at Arnhem and helicopter forces at the others.

Russell

Military history author
Website : Mastodon : Facebook

[Rules Junkie Jim]

Oooh interesting! Now I’m thinking about British and Commonwealth versus Vichy France in the Middle East… any excuse to bring out the Vickers MBTs!

[Rules Junkie Jim]

OK, my tiny mind is whirring – does anyone know what the British Army desert uniform was like in the 1970s? I’ve some of the new H&R infantry that have been kicking their heels – until now! And French troops of that era – would US infantry be an OK proxy? Ta!

[GeoffQRF]

I think in 6mm you can get aaat with just about anything.

Rules of choice?  I’m playing with CWC or Sabre Squadron

QRF Models Limited
www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

[Rules Junkie Jim]

GeoffQRF wrote:

I think in 6mm you can get aaat with just about anything.

That’s what 54mm players say about 15mm (probably). Let’s stand together against size-ism

GeoffQRF wrote:

Rules of choice?  I’m playing with CWC or Sabre Squadron

I recently purchased CWC on Wargames Vault and I’m keen to try them out. So either them or WRG 1950-1985.

[Ivan Sorensen]

Actually, speaking of rules, can you ping me at [email protected] Geoff? Or give me your email and I’ll hit you up right quick.

[Ivan Sorensen]

On topic, I need to check if I have cold war west germans still or I need to get new ones from Geoff.

Might do Yanks vs Krauts in the bocage, but I might go for the 70’s/80’s look instead of present day. M60 vs Leopard 1 should be interesting no?

[Grimheart]

Battle of the bulge? Peaky Russians dressed as NATO troops…..

Scheldt estuary campaign? Lots of commandoes, amphibious gear, etc.

Battle of Falaise pocket? Surrounded NATO struggling to escape the Russian hordes encirclement….

Interest include 6mm WW2, 6mm SciFi, 30mm Old West, DropFleet, Warlords Exterminate and others!

[Ivan Sorensen]

Operation Crusader with T55 on the attack vs Centurions? 🙂

[GeoffQRF]

I think there is some mileage here.

In fact, I reckon between us we could generate a dozen or so really good scenarios. Anyone fancy compiling them into a PDF?

QRF Models Limited
www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

[Grimheart]

I am strictly a ww2 guy so wouldn’t have a clue about more modern TOE’s I am afraid.

 

Interest include 6mm WW2, 6mm SciFi, 30mm Old West, DropFleet, Warlords Exterminate and others!

[GeoffQRF]

But you could provide some useful examples of WW2 engagements that others could convert

and a modern Kelly’s Heroes scenario.

QRF Models Limited
www.quickreactionforce.co.uk

[Jemima Fawr]

Rules Junkie Jim wrote:

OK, my tiny mind is whirring – does anyone know what the British Army desert uniform was like in the 1970s? I’ve some of the new H&R infantry that have been kicking their heels – until now! And French troops of that era – would US infantry be an OK proxy? Ta!

Desert DPM was the same as temperate DPM, though with a four-colour sand/brown scheme instead of sand/green/brown/black.  I don’t recall ever seeing British troops wearing it, however.  Lots of Middle Eastern countries’ armies wore it though.

My wargames blog: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/

[Jemima Fawr]

When the Gulf War suddenly erupted in 1990 they found the didn’t have any desert uniforms in stock and the Iraqi Army was already wearing the four-colour Desert DPM, so they frantically rushed out the simplified two-colour Desert DPM version that we’re familiar with.

My wargames blog: http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/

[Tom V.]

Mortain with the Warsaw Pact taking the German role and NATO taking the American.

[Iain Fuller]

Rules Junkie Jim wrote:

…any excuse to bring out the Vickers MBTs!

I had some Mk.3’s on the table on Monday Jim (pics of which will be posted on the blog later), and there’s going to be more this Monday too. As for the French proxy troops I’d go H&R US or try the GHQ ones (although they might be too modern?), I did buy some Scotia South Africans for this purpose as the helmets are similar but was a waste of money unfortunately.

As for the whole how to do it thing, I’ll probably go for swapping formations so a Wehrmacht Panzer Division becomes a Bundeswehr Panzer Division etc. Gives you a bit of licence for the Infantry Divisions with some becoming Mechanised or Motorised. Or alternatively scale it down one so each WW2 Division becomes a modern Brigade which might suit frontages better – I use FFT3 and like Brigade sized actions so both are good for me.

[Rules Junkie Jim]

Cheers JF, that’s perfect! All my searches drew a blank, the only 1970s desert colour photos I could find were of SAS blokes in Dhofar, and I think they picked their gear up from army surplus shops.

Iain Fuller wrote:

I did buy some Scotia South Africans for this purpose as the helmets are similar but was a waste of money unfortunately.

I quite like those figures (the ones in hats), and they’d do as 1960s Aden emergency British (the ones in sensible trousers anyway), but they’re noticeably lanky beside the H&R fellas, and probably not mixable. I’m loving the AARs you’re posting… especially, of course, the “PT-78ms”, and where else would you see them pitted against Chieftains than the Polish-Lithuanian War?

[Iain Fuller]

Cheers Jim, always good to hear that someone is enjoying them. It looks as if they are up against the French on Monday so I’m looking forward to see how the PT-78m fares against an AMX-30!

[Rod Robertson]

Ooh! Operation Wellhit (the recapture of Boulogne) in a Cold War theme would be cool too. Lots and lots of engineering kit for NATO and Soviet airborne troops, mortars, guns and ATGM’s dug in around Mont Lambert. That would be cool.

Cheers and good gaming.

Rod Robertson.

[Jonathan Ellison]

I could see that early (’41/’42) Eastern Front battles might be problematic unless there was a disparity in the eras of the kit used, eg 80’s Germans vs 60’s Soviets.  But otherwise you could have Soviets against Italians or Spanish; or even Soviets against other similarly equipped forces ie Hungarians and Romanians.

Or, just to be completely different – how about a Soviet invasion of Manchuria against a modern Japanese force?

 

JonathanE

[Author]

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