Which date do you prefer for the fall of Troy?

[Paskal]

As this war was considered among the ancient Greeks as the last event of the mythical age or the first event of the historical epoch, several dates are given for the fall of Troy.

They usually come from the genealogies of the kings:

Douris of Samos and Timaeus of Tauroménion gives 1344 BC, (1344 to 1334 BC, for Douris of Samos?).

And from 1202 to 1192 BC. J.-C. for the Timaeus of Tauromenion.

Eretes gives from 1300 to 1290 BC,(or 1301 to 1291 BC).

Herodotus gives from 1280 to 1270 BC, (or around 1250 BC).

Dicarque gives from 1222 to 1212 BC.

Hellanicos, Ephorus of Cumae and Chronicle of Paros give from 1218 to 1208 BC.

Dicaearchus gives 1212 BC.

Hecataeus and Thucydides give from 1210 to 1200 BC.

The marble parien gives 1209 av. J.-C. / 1208 BC.

Maneton and Julian the African give from 1208 to 1198.

Timaeus of Tauroménion gives from 1202 to 1192.

Velleius Paterculus gives from 1200 to 1190.

Eratosthenes, Apollodorus of Athens, Diodorus of Sicily, Castor of Rhodes, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Eusebius of Caesarea and Orosus, from 1194 to 1184 BC,(but also 1184/1183 BC for Eratosthenes and 1193 BC for Denys of Halicarnassus).

Timaeus gives 1193 BC.

Girolamos gives from 1192 to 1182 BC.

Sosibios of Laconia and Eratosthenes give 1183 BC/ 1184 BC.

But also from 1182 to 1172 BC for Sosibios and from 1194 to 1184 BC for Eratosthenes…

Sosibius (Sosibios of Laconia) gives from 1182 to 1172 BC.

Artemon of Clazomenes and Democritus give from 1160 to 1150 BC.

Ephorus gives 1135 BC.

As for the exact day, (from the fall of Troy I suppose?) Ephore gives 23/24 Thargelion (6 or 7 May), Hellanicus 12 Thargelion (26 May) while others give the 23rd of Sciroforion (7 July) or the 23rd of Ponamos (October 7th).

The glorious and rich city that Homer describes was considered as Trojan VI by many authors of the twentieth century, destroyed in 1275 BC, probably by an earthquake.

His disciple Troy VIIa, destroyed by fire at some point during the years 1180 BC, has long been considered a poorer city, but since the 1988 excavation campaign, it has become the most likely candidate.

All this is interesting to know what types of armor, shields and weapons must carry our figures and also what types of chariots, not to mention the tactics used?

Paskal

[Mr. Average]

Personally, I find it most intellectually satisfying to place it between 1200 and 1100 BC, because it allows the Trojan War to coincide with the start of the post-Helladic Greek Dark Age, which is a nice slot for it to go into in a historical chronology. The evidence for it isn’t good, though, and although it’s nice from a storytelling perspective it inflates the importance of the Trojan War and downplays all the other social and cultural changes happening in Mycenaean Greece and the Aegean at the time. Probably, the Fall of Troy wasn’t a single event but a series of successive destructions, and was simply one of many Palace Culture collapses that happened to be representative of a lot of different conflicts when it entered into the spoken literature of the Iliad and the Odyssey.

[Paskal]

I think that this may have occurred just before the appearance of the peoples of the sea…

Or at the same time?

[Mr. Average]

There’s a great series of lectures from Yale University on YouTube dealing with Greek history in this period. Just as an aside.

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

If I can’t choose my partner, it’s a tie between Virginie Despentes and Patty Smith. I think they’d both kinda get off on it.

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Paskal]

Apart from that, Thaddeus Blanchette, which date do you prefer for the fall of Troy ?

[Mike Headden]

As with most of the Bronze Age, I doubt we can ever be sure exactly what happened and when. That said, it seems pretty certain that we have the site of Troy and that Troy VIIA met an end at a date that ties in with the tale of Troy that has come down to us. So early 12th century BCE seems a likely setting for the Fall of A Troy, if not the Fall of THE Troy!

Maintaining a large force at such a distance from home for a period of ten years seems to me an unlikely feat for Mycenaean Greece and so I too wonder if what we have is the conflation of several wars/ raids.

The societal and logistical strain of such a thing, war or protracted raiding, might well have helped weaken the states in Greece and Western Anatolia and contributed to the collapse of the palace cultures.

As to the wooden horse I think the story is a misremembering of a perfectly normal siege engine, such as was used in the Near East for some time prior to our putative war.

A tower like this is vaguely horse shaped, a little artistry could make it much more so.

The story of the Trojans bringing it into the city is not too far fetched if we remember that captured enemies were sometimes used as labour in sieges, giving the defenders the dilemma over killing their own or allowing siege works to continue.

So, the Trojans drag the thing to the walls, they may have been forced to swing a ram to breach their own wall, men concealed in “the belly of the beast” swarm over the ramps from the tower or through the breach, open the gates for the rest of the army and much arson, pillage, looting and rape ensues. Pretty much as the legend says.

As to wargaming the event it would be the later boar-tusk helmet, pelta style shield and javelin armed warriors not the pike and tower shield variety for the Greeks, IMHO. The Trojans might be more Hittite-inspired in dress, as they may have been Hittite allies or vassals.

My, not terribly valuable, three ha’porth!

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Not Connard Sage]

Mike Headden wrote:

My, not terribly valuable, three ha’porth!

 

It’s as plausible as any other theory 🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Victoria Dickson]

Mike Headden wrote:

 

That is clearly a wooden mammoth, a very cute wooden mammoth. 🙂

http://crazywargames.blogspot.co.uk/

[kyoteblue]

It looks more like a Rabbit to me. Wink wink.

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Thinking more soberly about it, Paskal, I think I’d have to go with Patty Smith. She’s probably a much cheaper date than Virginie Despentes, if only in terms of comparative consumption capacity of recreational pharmaceuticals. 😉

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Paskal]

Already according to the weapon  and the chariot types described in the Iliad it can only be after 1350BC …

[Not Connard Sage]

Paskal wrote:

Already according to the weapon and the chariot types described in the Iliad it can only be after 1350BC …

 

No-one, including the sources in your first post, is saying otherwise.

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Mike]

Thaddeus Blanchette wrote:

Thinking more soberly about it, Paskal, I think I’d have to go with Patty Smith. She’s probably a much cheaper date than Virginie Despentes, if only in terms of comparative consumption capacity of recreational pharmaceuticals.

What are you talking about?

[Paskal]

Not Connard Sage ,after 1350BC are the generally accepted date, so it will give us 1350BC – 1150BC, in my opinion it was the 13th century BC …

[Not Connard Sage]

Mike wrote:

Thaddeus Blanchette wrote:

Thinking more soberly about it, Paskal, I think I’d have to go with Patty Smith. She’s probably a much cheaper date than Virginie Despentes, if only in terms of comparative consumption capacity of recreational pharmaceuticals.

What are you talking about?

 

He’s attempting to pun on ‘date’ in the thread title. Probably.

 

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Rhoderic]

This is the part where someone tells us which day in autumn is best to visit Troy, Michigan.

[zippyfusenet]

The only historical evidence I know of is from the Hittite records, which tell of Ahhiyawans (Achaeans) making war on or near the land of Wilusa (Ilios) about 1280 BC, about 1250 BC and again about 1230 BC. The destruction of Troy VIh is dated to about 1250 BC (you give 1275 BC from whatever source you are using); there was earthquake damage, but the place could have been sacked, too. Troy VII flourished after the fall of the Mycenaean civilization, so probably was not the city the Achaeans attacked. I like about 1250 BC for the ‘Trojan War’, or 1275 BC if your source on the fall of Troy VI is more reliable.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2717/was-there-a-real-trojan-war-as-depicted-in-the-em-iliad-em

You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

[Paskal]

Yes, but the armament and the equipments as well as the chariots described are also another historical evidences…

[zippyfusenet]

The Hittite records are dated, historical. We don’t know exactly when the Illiad was composed, or how accurately it reflects history. But your guess is as good as mine, the date is disputed and probably always will be. But on the third hand, you asked for my opinion…

You'll shoot your eye out, kid!

[Victoria Dickson]

Paskal wrote:

Yes, but the armament and the equipments as well as the chariots described are also another historical evidences…

Here’s some more historical evidence for the weapons and armour they used.

http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/w/the-war-of-troy-tapestry/

I think it’s probably wiser to go with archaeology rather than what people hundreds of years later thought it might have been like.  Or just use whatever you think looks right, I think doing a myth lets you get away with that. 🙂

http://crazywargames.blogspot.co.uk/

[Patrice]

Congratulations Paskal this is one of the best threads you have initiated!

http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
https://www.anargader.net/

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

Rhoderic wrote:

This is the part where someone tells us which day in autumn is best to visit Troy, Michigan.

Shirley, you can do better than that…

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Paskal]

As archeology has discovered nothing new about the Mycenaean, unless new discoveries and / or a re-reading of the iliad, we will not go further ……

[Thaddeus Blanchette]

One thing that HAS been found recently is the Tollense battle site in Northern Germany.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle

It’s dated to around 1250 BC. Coincidence?

We know that the mediterranean basin was plunged into war at around the same time and, whatever date one chooses for the fall of Troy, it is very likely that the Illiad is a retelling of oral history regarding this era.

But now we know that sizeable, well-equipped, bronze age armies were clashing in Northern Germany at the same time — a region which was thought to have no substantial cities (if any at all).

So what was going on? Is the Tollense battle linked to the Sea Peoples’ invasion of the Eastern Mediterranean? Was this the northern arm of a barbarian invasion coming out of Asia that alos turned sputh?

 

 

We get slapped around, but we have a good time!

[Mr. Average]

That would be interesting, it could link into a series of successive displacements southward.  It’d also be an interesting foreshadowing of the fall of the Western Empire 2000 years later, which happened in much the same way.

[Mr. Average]

Thaddeus Blanchette wrote:

Shirley, you can do better than that…

…and don’t call me Shirley. 😉

[Mike]

Can we stay on topic please everyone?

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