Modelling Tank vs. Tank Play Test

[War Panda]

Just tried out some of the proposals to modifying a mainly  Bolt Action model just to see how some of the changes felt. I didn’t  actually play the infantry turns but I recorded how much activity took place between tank activations.

Modifications included a Joker Dice which ended the Turn. I played that any inactivated infantry could go on ambush or Down or armour could go overwatch or  reverse d6 inches

Tanks were on separate die from the infantry. One Sherman and a Stug. But Stug had 2 dice as it was Elite. Sherman 1 as was Reg.

Appropriate Skills possessed and used:

Stug Commander have Tank War Skill “Eagle Eye”

Stug Gunner has “Snap Shoot” these could be used once in the game

Activation of a Skill required a successful Skill test (roll lower than Troop Skill Level. Stug 10 Sherman 9

Movement rates are random. Tracked move on road with 4 d6’s full speed…

Ger Infantry Unit: Lt Blue

Stug had two die: Grey

Sherman: Brown die

Sherman has activated this turn already. The Stug is on the other side of town to the right and out of sight of the Sherman

First Turn ends only after two infantry activate. All units can go on Overwatch.

Sherman goes on Overwatch

Stug’s dice comes up first!

 

Stug decides to Advance (Move half pace and fire with penalized modifier) Rolls 2 d6’s

 

Rolls 2x 2 =only 4 inches…

 

But it’s just enough to get him on the street and in view of the Sherman…

 

They’re just short of 30 inches

This is less that half range for the Stug but just over for the Sherman…

The Sherman declares he will react fire to the Stug’s movement (he’s on Overwatch)

The Stug responds by playing his Eagle Eye Skill…which mean’s he can fire first if he successfully rolls a Skill Test…Veteran so 10 or less with 2 d6’s

That’s a pass…Stug will shoot first…Base 3 chance to hit. +1 because Stug’s just moved and +1 because he’s slightly unsighted with a burning 251 in the way  5 or 6 will hit

Rolls a four…missed

 

 

Sherman breaths a sigh of relief and can now fire straight back (remember he has an overwatch shot)

Sherman open’s fire…he’s stationary but unlike the stug he’s over half range so that’s a +1 and the burning half track between them means a 5+ to hit

Rolls a six…a hit

Rolls a 4 +5 for the 75mm damaging the Stug with a 9 ….

but it’s a -1 for long range for the Sherman so just falls short of getting the required 9 or more…it strikes the front of the stug’s armour with no effect

Lots of infantry dice before finally the Stug is drawn (remember the Stug has two dice to the Sherman’s one)

Another shot blasts from the Stug’s cannon…needing 4,5, or a 6 now because it hasn’t moved

4 means a hit on the Sherman

 

 

A 4 on the damage dice means it’s received at least some damage…follwed by a 3 and on the chart it means the Sherman’s immobilized and is pinned…it’s also lost it’s action for this turn.

Also means any further damage will destroy the Sherman!

Next Command dice drawn is the Stug …he’s hit already so I give a 1+ to hit…so he’ll hit on a 3,4,5,6

Rolls a “one”…lucky boy

Sherman’s die but he’s pinned so needs to roll and 9 or less – 1 for the pin so 8 or less…rolls a 5, the pin is removed and the Sherman opens fire

Sherman fires back

Needs a 3+ to hit…(it’s hit the Stug already so +1)…gets a five followed by a 6 for damage +5 for the 75mm meaning an 11 -1 for range 10 thats still damage but not massive

It’s hit and has penetrated but needs to…roll on the damage chart

5 on the damage chart means the Stug explodes into a violent mess of steel and screams

The Sherman has some how survived…well at least for now…it is immobilized for the rest of the game…

Well I realize these rules may not be for everybody and the ranges may seem questionable but this felt very satisfying and I loved the to and fro of it….I played the dice as rolled and was kind of amazed how it all worked out…

Also there was a bazooka available to the US and a PS available to the Germans so you never know how it would have turned out with the infantry running about. It would have been difficult to get each of them within range of their respected targets however

One question: If a anti-tank weapon has hit a target that doesn’t move should the nest shot be an automatic hit or what kind of modifier?

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[Rod Robertson]

The War Panda:

Very cool interaction and very tense too. Perhaps the StuG should have suffered an additional +1 to hit on its first shot only due to not having seen the Sherman at the start of the turn?

You asked:

“One question: If a anti-tank weapon has hit a target that doesn’t move should the nest shot be an automatic hit or what kind of modifier?”

My inclination would be to give a +1 to hit if the target does not move and the firer does not move for the next shot.

Cheers and great gaming.

Rod Robertson

[War Panda]

“Perhaps the StuG should have suffered an additional +1 to hit on its first shot only due to not having seen the Sherman at the start of the turn?”

 

Yeah I forgot about that and I think it makes sense for both tanks to be penalized in the first turn (in some way. And incorporating it into the “to-hit” makes most sense. My worry Rod is there’s already going to be a +1 for moving into position…will a tank want to risk it at all. And perhaps thats the point….wasn’t that the case in reality anyway.

What about the point Jack makes about penalizing a stationary tank rather than the moving one?

***Edit: I might move this discussion back to the main thread actually***

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[Ivan Sorensen]

I don’t have anything to add rules-wise but the zoomed in photo’s looks great. Got a little Saving Private Ryan feeling going on there.

[War Panda]

Thanks Ivan 🙂 Maybe a Little More Like Saving Ryan’s Privates after the Stug’s last roll 🙂

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[Ivan Sorensen]

As an aside, is there a chance of the crew bailing out when the tracks get hit?

Should there be?

[War Panda]

Important Notice and Disclaimer

Absolutely no animals were killed or hurt during the making of this AAR

 

 

Well…absolutely not very many…

Maybe a cow or two…

And a couple of horses…but no more than 4 cows and a couple of calves and there was that cat but in all honestly he’s got 8 lives left

The Sherman did MG a dog pound before he turned onto the main street but it wasn’t very full and was mainly small lap dogs…

Actually now that you mention it there was this really funny moment when the FJ Flamethrower team gathered up all these kittens and…

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[Ivan Sorensen]

Probably Schnauzers and other Nazi dogs.

[War Panda]

Ha, ha that’s right…they had it comin

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

[Rod Robertson]

Heel Hitler!

[Ivan Sorensen]

Both Lenin and Churchill had cats.
Though FDR had like a million dogs, but they were patriotic, anti-fascist dogs I bet.

[Norm S]

I think the great strength of the rules is the absorbing story that it produces and these days, it is that sort of thing that I want my games to give.

In Advance Squad leader (ASL), perhaps one of the most notable of tactical games, after the first shot, you get target acquisition of +1 (though it is on 2 x D6 to hit) and second shot would generate a +2 target acquisition marker on subsequent shots as long as there is not a break (i.e the unit does not move out of LOS or the firer fires at something else).

I have no problem with the short ranges mentioned, as I have said before, we need to be in a cartoon world if we are to have all our toys on the table. The perception of ‘what is realistic’ is different for each of us, but I am guessing that what most gamers think is realistic is in truth only half way realistic and if you made Bolt Action more ‘realistic’, it would likely lose its story telling strengths by degree.

In reality, some things like the Jagd panther should never be in the immediate front line. Their training manual had them back 1500 – 2000m from the front, where their gun could easily engage, the lack of a turret didn’t matter too much and their thick armour made them pretty much immune to return fire from the ground…….. but we want them on the table!

Every rule set fills a niche or a gaming perspective, if that niche does not suit the player, then it is not to say that the rules have failed – it simply means the gamer needs to continue looking elsewhere.

Neil Thomas rule (One – Hour wargames) holds a position that rule designers can introduce a lot into their rules to make them more realistic and yet the outcomes can be close to his own rules that do have all those modifiers and other ‘essentials’ that apparently we can’t do without in rules. I am not saying that I fully embrace that, but I have a very substantial sympathy with such a point of view.

 

[Ivan Sorensen]

A few years back, I had downloaded a bunch of free WW2 games and played the same scenario with each set.

In the end, while we had games where we liked or disliked the process more or less, we had a hard time remembering which game had been with which system, because the outcomes weren’t all that different in the end 🙂

Er… I mean, all the other games are garbage, buy mine!

[Rod Robertson]

Ivan:

i like and respect an honest and straight-forward man! I may or may not buy more of your rules but if you’re ever in Montreal, I will buy you some beers while we discuss wargaming.

Cheers and good sales.

Rod Robertson.

 

[Ivan Sorensen]

I’ll keep that in mind if I get the chance to visit our comrades to the North 🙂

[War Panda]

“As an aside, is there a chance of the crew bailing out when the tracks get hit?”

In the rules it requires a second hit for the crew to bail but there probably should be at a least a chance of bailing

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”

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