Nazis

[Deleted User]

I’ve been a member of Bennos forum for much longer than I have been here. Generally a nice place with some amazingly talented painters.

I was surprised, to say the least, when I was told to not refer to the WW2 German army as Nazis.

http://bennosfiguresforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21368&p=238298#p238298

(scroll down for the moderator’s pronouncement).

Am I missing something here? Are they really trying to whitewash history?

 

donald

[Etranger]

I guess the argument is that not all members of the German Armed Forces were Nazis. It does seem overly sensitive. Perhaps this might be appropriate…

“That’s a typical shabby Nazi trick!”

[Mike]

I understand that a Nazi is a member of a political party.
Given this, it seems fair to assume that not every German was a member of the Nazi party and as such not all Germans were Nazis.
I would not call the regular German army Nazis myself, but would for example call the SS Nazis.
I imagine that in that part of the world today, people resent the notion that simply being German makes/made one a Nazi.
Seems fair to me.

EDIT: My politically astute wife has just informed me that being a member of the Nazi party was compulsory, so in light of this then technically I guess they were all Nazis.
Though with no choice.
I guess the forum mods there want to make the distinction between those that had no choice but to join, and those that revelled in their membership.

You may call the German army of WWII Nazis on TWW.

Please be aware I am allowing this topic for now as long it remains civil and the politics aspect remains light and relevant to WWII Nazis.

[Deleted User]

Thanks, Mike. If it doesn’t fit TWW, by all means ” nuke” it.

There was a fiction, pushed after the war, that the Heer was clean and it was all the SS responsible for war crimes. Not so. The German army in Ww2 was complicit in atrocities.

This is by no means an attempt to smear contemporary Germans. But I think history must be allowed to judge the Nazi regime or else forget what they stood for and what they did.

 

donald

[Mike]

Nothing is ever truly nuked, they go off into storage, just in case.
Kind of like a warehouse of boxed up topics…

[Deleted User]

Looks like something from Harry Potter.

 

donald

[Etranger]

They’re being looked after by ‘top people’ Donald…

[Guy Farrish]

I seem to remember reading – on another site I think, but I may be wrong – an argument that WWII was being ‘sanitised’ by the reverse of the OP point. The word ‘German’ it was claimed, was being removed from the lexicon of WWII history because that reflected badly on the current German people, whereas ‘Nazi’ as the preferred term meant that the ‘unpleasantness’ was attached to a distant rogue political grouping that had no modern resonance with any group.

Either the times they area changin’ or anyone can read anything into any usage if they wish.

 

(Harry Potter! Did Dr Jones battle the Third Reich in vain? Apparently.)

[Hafen von Schlockenberg]

I use the roleplay approach. When playing Brits, I call them Jerries. Americans? Then they’re Krauts. And my Russians call them Fascists. Or even “Hitlerites”!

May not help for Benno’s. 

[Deleted User]

I saw the first Indiana Jones movie & the first Pirates of the Caribbean film.

 

I believe I wisely refused to see any more.

 

donald

[Deleted User]

Hafen von Schlockenberg wrote:

I use the roleplay approach. When playing Brits, I call them Jerries. Americans? Then they’re Krauts. And my Russians call them Fascists. Or even “Hitlerites”! May not help for Benno’s.

 

Thanks, Haf.

One of the moderators there goes by Erich Von Manstein. It isn’t inconceivable he’s the “mystery moderator” (never heard of before this) who banned the use of “Nazi”.

Curiously, the real Manstein, a war criminal, was behind the initial ‘Clean Wehrmacht’ myth. If I was into conspiracy theories…….but fortunately I’m only into wargaming where none of my miniature figures are guilty of atrocities.

 

donald

[Mike]

Deleted User wrote:

I believe I wisely refused to see any more.

As a rule I try to discourage people from ganging up on other members based on what they say they like.
In this case however…

[grizzlymc]

Good thing I am not on there.  If they think Nazi is contentious for 1933-1945 Germany god knows what they’d make of what I call:

1917-1989 Soviets

1951-2018 Norks

1948-2018 North Vietnamese

Various – Afghanistan

2001-2017 Levantines

[Not Connard Sage]

Allegedly, von Manstein’s family name was Lewinsky.

Make of that what you will.

 

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[MartinR]

Mansteins father was a Prussian aristocrat from a family of Polish descent, the von Lewinsky’s. He became von Manstein when was adopted by a relative. They were all vons though, all Prussian aristocrats (and Generals).

Personally I’d avoid calling anyone a Nazi unless they are a card carrying member of a Nazi organisation, as it devalues the term, but it is not incorrect to describe the various German armed forces of WW2 as being those of Nazi Germany.

 

"Mistakes in the initial deployment cannot be rectified" - Helmuth von Moltke

[General Slade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C_G48nQEmg

[irishserb]

My junior high school science teacher used to talk to us about life in Nazi Germany and during the war as a teenage girl.  Her father had opposed Hitler, during his rise to power, so her family were targeted by the gestapo.    She talked about them frequently searching and ransacking  the house, abusing her and family members, etc.   While her father might have been compelled to be a member of the party, I suspect that he may not have been a Nazi.

While, I tend to use the words “Soviet” and  “Russian” almost interchangeably in reference to WWII figures, I seldom use the word Nazi to refer to WWII German figures.  I had never really considered it before.

If I were a member of a forum with such a rule, without further explanation (and maybe even more so with), it would greatly concern me, and likely impact my use of the forum.

[Patrice]

I have no problem in using both, depending on context.

Post-WW2 French memory plates on graves of Resistance fighters etc. most often mention they have been shot by “les Allemands” …or sometimes “victime de la barbarie nazie”. “Nazi” would be used if mentioning the regime and SS etc, but “les Allemands” is still the most common term when speaking about the whole army; certainly not excluding the Wehrmacht of atrocities, but more probably as a sequel of WW1 in French minds of this time: people (as my grand parents) felt they had been occupied by “les Allemands” (um, actually my grand parents used to say “les Boches”…) nazism was something more intellectual.

The first verse of the famous song “Le partisan” is “When they poured across the border” in English, but “Les Allemands étaient chez moi” in French. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX1XQE1NYw8

I have no problem calling them Nazis (which they were actually fighting for) …however I would be unhappy to meet players boasting about their “nazi army” and I would certainly be angry if some miniature company advertised for a “WW2 Nazi army”, they are well inspired to call them German in that case.

“Soviet” was the official name of a country and of its citizenship, it’s different. People also called them “Les Russes” of course.

http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
https://www.anargader.net/

[Deleted User]

General Slade wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6C_G48nQEmg

 

I had never heard this. It is hilarious……but oh so impossible for modern times.

 

donald

[Who Asked This Joker]

I agree with others here that the country was readily called NAZI Germany from ~1933-1945.  The army served the party in power AKA the NAZIs.  It is natural to want to call it the German army of the time NAZI, especially since the product of their conquests generally pushed the NAZI agenda.  The only reason I can think they want it changed is because the word NAZI is generally a taboo word in Germany, likely where a good many forum members call home.  Never the less, I believe it perfectly correct to call the German army of the time NAZIs.

John

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

--Abraham Lincoln

[grizzlymc]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

Allegedly, von Manstein’s family name was Lewinsky. Make of that what you will.

I did NOT have a military relationship with that man!

[Deleted User]

I’ve had a chat with one of the moderators there. A Dutch fellow & very charming & polite. A veritable Voice of Reason.

He acknowledges I certainly wasn’t calling any member or contemporary German a Nazi but that some people are sensitive over the term.

For the sake of harmony, I won’t use the ‘Nazi’ word there again.

 

donald

[Etranger]

I dunno, I’ve think I’ve heard that tune played on ABC Classic FM!

Anyway there’s always Mel Brooks’ Hitler Rap. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbKTdVpnGj8

Post that and watch some heads explode…

[grizzlymc]

[Les Hammond]

Possibly the word Nazi appearing in a website might interfere with certain search results and -horrors!- advertising and sponsorship revenue.

I’m not sure if I would use the term, even if a game objective was to capture a Gestapo HQ. Opinions are polarised; German will do.

6mm France 1940

http://les1940.blogspot.co.uk/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/386297688467965/

[Mr. Average]

C?

[Phil Dutré]

If you like to discuss military history with a certain degree of accuracy, you should also use proper and correct terms and terminology. Using terms such as “Nazi soldiers” or “Nazi army” seems a bit too much slang and a bit too less proper usage of vocabulary.

For a comic book, it might be ok to refer to the “fight between the Nazis and the Commies”. In a wargaming discussion, I prefer to set higher standards.

 

[Phil Dutré]

Btw, using the word Nazi to refer to anything Germany-WW2-related seems to be a rather recent trend, and restricted to English. I have not seen it in other languages so far, or at least not so common.

‘Nazi’ is not a country, it is not a nationality, it is not a  citizenship. It was/is a shorthand for the name and the ideology of the ruling party in Germany during WW2. You could use the term ‘Nazi-party’, ‘Nazi-era Germany’, or ‘Nazi-ideology’, but using ‘Nazis’ to refer to all people living in Germany during WW2, or all of its soldiers, or its institutions, is simply not a correct use of the term.

I live in Belgium, and the term ‘Nazi’ is used to refer to the party or its policies, associated organizations, and also often in relation to war crimes. However, the WW2 occupation  is simply referred to as the ‘German occupation’, the army as the ‘German army’, the invasion of May 1940 is the ‘German invasion’, and so on.

[Deleted User]

Phil Dutré wrote:

Btw, using the word Nazi to refer to anything Germany-WW2-related seems to be a rather recent trend, .

 

No. The family, who lived & fought through the Nazi attack on Britain in WW2 (the Nazi War) usually referred to the Nazis ever since the Nazis started the war, the Nazi bombing of Glasgow, the Nazis who had to be beaten back in North Africa and the Nazis in Italy until the Nazis were broken by the D-Day invasion. Nazis are nasty, we’ve always thought, but I can see a current trend to whitewash them, starting with avoiding the word, “Nazi”.

 

donald

[Mike]

So, having gotten an answer about why Benno’s forum did what it did, I think this conversation is all but sorted now ladies and gents?

[Deleted User]

To be accurate, we got the reason they said motivated the ban. But by all means close the thread here.

donald

 

 

 

[DM]

Deleted User wrote:

I saw the first Indiana Jones movie & the first Pirates of the Caribbean film. I believe I wisely refused to see any more. donald

[Phil Dutré]

Deleted User wrote:

but I can see a current trend to whitewash them

There is no whitewashing going on at all. You might think so, but it is simply not the case. Rather, I see people becoming more sloppy in their use of correct terminology. Hollywood and tabloid terminology is usually not a good norm to follow.

Look, I can see your point, but I’m afraid you’re mixing two issues: description of historic events related to ww2, and the current use and increase of the word Nazi in political popular debate. Transferring slang and populistic terms of today into discussions of historical events is never a good idea. You might want to look up newspapers from the era, and count the frequency of certain words being used, but that would require quite a lot of work 😉 however, you can take a look yourself at https://books.google.com/ngrams or similar sites.

But anyway, I won’t post on this topic anymore.

[Deleted User]

Phil Dutré wrote:

Ochoin wrote:

but I can see a current trend to whitewash them

But anyway, I won’t post on this topic anymore.

 

Hi, Phil,

 

I hope I haven’t offended you. That was not my intention. This will also be my last post on the thread.

 

regards, donald

[Phil Dutré]

No offence taken, don’t worry.

It simply seems there are different viewpoints here, everyone has voiced their view on the matter, and before we know it, this might turn into a yes/no shouting game. So better stop now  🙂

[Guy Farrish]

I have no desire to add fuel to any fires ( I don’t see any but just in case!) or put anyone’s back up or nose out of joint (enough clichés already!), but I think it is very difficult to make a clear determination on this usage.

‘Nazi’ was clearly used commonly by the British in WWII as a derogatory term towards Germany and Germans – (Churchill’s Naaarrrzis and various anecdotal references here and elsewhere), nothing to do with Hollywood or modern social media. I agree it has a very specific accurate use regarding membership of the NSDAP but this has been commonly ignored over the last 80 years or so (not approving or disapproving that, merely commenting).

It may be being misused more now, but as I mentioned earlier some people regard the use as a negative thing, whitewashing the fact it was ‘Germans’ who elected the NSDAP into power, whereas others here obviously worry that NOT using the word ‘Nazi’ gets Nazis of the hook by blaming the whole German people.

Difficult eh?

Anecdotal evidence is evidence but it is seldom accurate for the whole picture.

My feeling is that we should probably be more precise in usage, but I am very against the idea of banning words because they ruffle some people’s feathers. Presumably the forum which banned it is a privately run thing and the owner is entitled to ban what he/she wants, but I’m not encouraged to visit by this ban.

I’m not shouting Yes or No – I’m a definite Maybe – and I’m trying to whisper.

[Phil Dutré]

Just to add a few points since we had this discussion:

• the last issue of Wargames, Soldiers, Strategy (WSS), which dealt with “Weird WW2”, also made abundunt use of the word “Nazi”. Some articles or scenarios involved pulp/weirdWW2 setups, and since these draw inspiration from comics and pulp stories, it’s more or less understandable. However, the word “Nazi” as a catch-all term was also seen in other articles dealing with a historical context, which is less understandable.
• Last week I visited the “Memorial and Holocaust” Museum in Mechelen, Belgium. It’s the national museum in Belgium that deals with the history of deportation, the death camps etc, specifically as seen from a Belgian context. You see a mix of adjectives “Nazi” and “German”, but mostly Nazi is when one talks about ideology or politics, German when talking about army, forces, occupation, etc.
• Today I read an article in the New Yorker magazine, “Is Poland Retreating from Democracy” (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/07/30/is-poland-retreating-from-democracy), in which it is argued that the use of the word Nazi masks the involvement of Germany as a country: “[…] said that the Western European and American press, when referring to the perpetrators of the Holocaust, never use the word “German.” “There is always one word: ‘Nazi,’ ” he told me. There is concern that, over time, people might begin to assume that the Nazi death camps in Poland were, in fact, Polish.“

The latter point is worth thinking about … the sensitivities might be very different in how different countries dealt (and still deal) with the occupation, the deportations and the death camps.

[Author]

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