Where to find Uchelwr?

[Not Connard Sage]

Cerdic wrote:

In an age when all equipment was individually made by craftsmen and the wealthy would buy whatever they thought was effective and cool, I don’t think there would be much in the way of standardisation. So if you turned up at the mustering of your Lord’s host, I doubt there would be a bloke with a clipboard going “no, your mail is too long and your shield is the wrong shape! Go home and change immediately!”…

Yebbut Pascal wants a figure exactly like the one in the pic. Or exactly like the one in the text.

With a round kite shield, a short corselet knee length hauberk and bare legs in mail hosen. 🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Paskal]

@ Not Connard Sage:

Why the bloody hell MUST it exist ?

For the pleasure of looking for it then find it!

[Paskal]

@Guy :

Divide the Welsh society into free Welsh and Marchers is normal, it was like this …

The Welsh Marcher lords were dressed mostly like English Norman nobles and maintained retainers. it’s normal, it was like that …

But in the 11th and 12th century the free Welsh had kept all their celticity, that’s why the Uchelwyrs (with round shields please) have so many charms …

[Not Connard Sage]

Paskal wrote:

@guy : Divide the Welsh society into Native and Walking is normal, it was like this … The Welsh Walking lords were dressed mostly like English Norman nobles and maintained retainers. it’s normal, it was like that … But in the 11th and 12th century the free Welsh had kept all their celticity, that’s why the Uchelwyrs (with round shields please) have so many charms …

 

The Uchelwyr in the illustration has a kite shield…

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Paskal]

@Cerdic:

Totally agree but for a Uchelwyr, I prefer a round shield …

[Paskal]

@ Not Connard Sage:

The Uchelwyr in the WRG book  illustration has a conventional long shield , not a kite shield, it’s a artistic license it’s explained in the text …

[Rhoderic]

It’s just, you were saying earlier you wanted a replica in miniature of the Ian Heath illustration. I’m not saying you can’t change your mind, but we can’t really hit a target when we don’t even know what the target is.

Is there now a settled, un-contradictory definition, in terms of clothing and equipment, of the figure you’re hoping to find?

[Paskal]

@ Rhoderic:

As you know, some manufactures have reproduced in 25 / 30mm figures, the illustrations of Ian Heath, why not this one and then his other Welsh illustrations have been reproduced …

I do not know all the factories of figurines with a range of Welsh 25 / 30mm figures, there is necessarily one that reproduced this illustration !

[Guy Farrish]

Paskal wrote:

@guy : Divide the Welsh society into free Welsh and Marchers is normal, it was like this … The Welsh Marcher lords were dressed mostly like English Norman nobles and maintained retainers. it’s normal, it was like that … But in the 11th and 12th century the free Welsh had kept all their celticity, that’s why the Uchelwyrs (with round shields please) have so many charms …

C11th certainly (though for example in what became Monmouthshire there were Anglo-Saxon intrusions (The Godwinsons built a hunting lodge in Portskewett  burnt by Caradog ap Gruffydd in 1265 (Anglo-Saxon Chronicle). The connections with Anglo-Danish society (not always adversarial) must have influenced Welsh dress and military methods, after all Wales was no longer using late Roman styles and methods so there had already been change.

C12th  – doubtful – already change through Marcher contact.

[and just a language point to us all – Uchelwr is the singular, Uchelwyr is the plural – no ‘S’ required. It just means ‘high man’ literally or ‘nobleman’ in idiomatic translation]

[Paskal]

@Guy :

The free Welsh were not English, so nothing indecent that they keep their culture in all its aspects unlike the servile Marcher Welsh and their retainers …

For all:

Note that Old Glory offers Scottish knights (HCW-24) while selling English knights ..?

The Scots were so equipped differently from the English ?

And at such a late time?

So why are free Welsh people not different from their opponents 150 years before ?

Uchelwr is the singular, Uchelwyr is the plural ! Thank you ! Guy it’s a  good thing said !

[Rhoderic]

Paskal wrote:

@ Rhoderic: As you know, some manufactures have reproduced in 25 / 30mm figures, the illustrations of Ian Heath, why not this one and then his other Welsh illustrations have been reproduced … I do not know all the factories of figurines with a range of Welsh 25 / 30mm figures, there is necessarily one that reproduced this illustration !

Given the largely un-Celtic genericness of the horseman in the illustration, and the fact that the one and only distinctly un-Norman feature about him (the bare legs) is one that’s eminently easy to convert, fudge, ignore or not even notice in the first place, I don’t think anyone saw the need. It would basically be the same as sculpting a Norman knight with only the subtle difference that the legs would not have the telltale creases of hose. Wouldn’t it?

[Paskal]

@Rhoderic

Yes, it seems that the reference DAC-01 of Old Glory is very close, I will see …

In the 14th century, the Scottish, English, German and French knights had to be very different from each other because Old Glory reproduced them all in different ways …

So in the XIV th the military equipments are not alike but 150 years before they looked alike !?

[Paskal]

Well, there is the reference SW01b Mounted Welsh Warlord of Gripping Beast, but it seems to me earlier than those of the time that interests me …It’s weird, it does not suit me…

[Guy Farrish]

SW03 Welsh Teulu (Gripping Beast) not suit you?

[Not Connard Sage]

Guy Farrish wrote:

SW03 Welsh Teulu (Gripping Beast) not suit you?

Looks the thing from where I’m sitting. It looks like they’re even mounted on Welsh cobs.

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Paskal]

It’s starting to become interesting, but it’s not yet there, they’re too sub-roman British and I do not like the “grosses” figurines of this manufacture …

The Uchelwyrs of the 11th and 12th centuries are not sub-roman British, that would know ……

[Paskal]

Yeah the carving is weird,They are mounted on what types of quadrupeds?

I’m the Old Glory I prefer !!!

And this is a good start, we finally found a factory with Uchelwyrs figures and designate them as such, there is hope, hope that we will find this year!

[Cerdic]

Hmmm. So, what we are looking for is a late Norman looking figure but with bare legs and a round shield?

Seems like the best way to replicate it is to find a late Norman/First Crusade type figure with tight trousers and a separate shield. The legs can be made to look bare with minimal work and/or a paintjob. Packs of round shields are easy to find and can supply a replacement for the kite that will come with the figure.

Sound feasible?

http://28mmreview.blogspot.co.uk

[Paskal]

Yes I think the Old Glory DAC-01 reference will do, because it also takes a long tunic like the knights of Jerusalem.

[Cerdic]

Might be worth looking at El Cid era Spanish ranges as well. They often have longer tunics under the hauberk.

http://28mmreview.blogspot.co.uk

[Paskal]

Yes elsewhere I was told about this, what manufactures ?

[Who Asked This Joker]

Paskal wrote:

Hello everyone, Where to find in 25 mm/30 mm figurines representing Uchelwr of the eleventh, twelfth or thirteenth century? Thank you Pascal

So we are talking anywhere between 1000AD and 1299AD.  That’s actually a pretty big range!  I will assume you want something after the Norman conquest of England.  1066 or later.  I will admit that this is the first I’ve heard of Uchlewr.  They seem to be nobles commonly from Gwenydd, right?  That being the case, they are more likely similar to native Britons in dress.  The man in the picture seems to be influenced by Irish fashion of the time.  I’d suggest that an Uchelwr would have a tunic that ends at the upper knee, not different from a Norman, Saxon or Viking (Norse) tunic.  The kit (armor/weapons), of course, could be of any style and type.  I would think that a Pre-Feudal Scottish Noble would fit the bill really well.  Maybe Crusader Miniatures Mounted Scots Thanes?

Here is an article by Dan Mersey that seems pretty informative.

My 2 cents.

John

 

 

 

John

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

--Abraham Lincoln

[Paskal]

@ Who Asked This Joker :

Yes, and what references of 25/30 mm figures of what manufactures are most similar to it so that we can see what we can do ?

I was thinking of the Old Glory DAC-01, but I have not received it …

And you ?

[Guy Farrish]

Who Asked This Joker

Uchelwyr were from all over Wales, not just Gwynedd – land owning class – lords or noblemen.

Not sure why you think the figure NCS posted looks to be particularly Irish influenced? Is it because of the green? The Welsh are quite often recorded as appearing in green and white (later Tudor colours as well), so no Irish influence. There would of course have been interaction with the Irish, both as allies and raiders and no doubt with Manx and Scots too, and definitely with various nordic types coming down through the Irish sea, so the ‘celticity’ would be a melange of current fashion and armour from many sources, including Anglo-Saxons and Normans.

The Scots Thane looks as good as anything else suggested for the early period. I’d be surprised however if many (any?) Welsh noblemen turned up like that in 1260.

 

 

[Paskal]

For all,

The Uchelwyrs are all these Welsh nobles who make up the Teulu of their Kings and others…

When I talk about celticity, I think of the differences in outfits between the  Welsh spearmen and  archers and their Anglo-Norman and then English counterparts …

The Welsh always appear in a fashion dress and equipment slightly more old and therefore obsolete than their counterparts Anglo-Norman then English …

The same goes for the Uchelwyrs – see all the illustrations posted on this topic – the Uchelwyrs who are not  knights who do not exist in the Welsh at the time of the Uchelwyr – also have this little air old and therefore obsolete that gives them so much charm, which should be accentuated by their round shields …

We should also know what they wear such type of  spear …

[Guy Farrish]

Certainly the Welsh always appear slightly out of date, when portrayed by English chroniclers, and Half Welsh/Half Norman prelates eager to get an Archbishopric out of the deal.

However we shouldn’t think of Welsh Kings and their nobles as being quite such backwoods hicks. Rhys ap Gruffudd of Deheubarth spoke fluent French and was regarded despite his wars with Henry II as one of the French speaking elite pan European nobility, even Gerald de Barri portraying him mixing with the members of the house of Clare – the Norman Marcher Lords – on equal terms. He didn’t of course, as most of his Anglo-Norman social equals did not, speak fluent (any?) English.

As for knights. Well, probably not – but define ‘knight’. The social class or the military order or the more generic, armoured horseman?

Knighthood as a method of landholding to pay for an armed mounted retainer and his supporters was not part of the Welsh social set up at the beginning of the period (Welsh social relations were in fairly rapid and dramatic flux in this period- commonly touted as non-feudal, there were quite complicated dues paid in kind to social superiors within Kingdoms and these changed to money payments in the thirteenth century).Mounted and armoured  (albeit poorly perhaps, in mail for longer than in Anglo-Norman military circles)horsemen, certainly existed and they were socially between the King and the ordinary freemen.  Exact relationships are more difficult to work out than in England because many of the original documents that may have clarified matters were lost or destroyed on the ending of individual Welsh courts, or did not exist in clear terms in the beginning beyond the laws of Hywel Dda.

It is precisely during this period that the ‘Welsh’ began using the term Cymro, at first in tandem with, and then in preference to Brython ,to refer to themselves. It marks a growing awareness of a change in their status and reflects a modernising of that self awareness at the leadership level. The idea of a backward looking, romantic, Dark Age, Brythonic Celtic identity fits very nicely with Victorian ideas of English Imperial achievement, but sits at odds with the contemporary evidence of a nation unifying itself in a wider European context. (Just too late unfortunately to counter the imperial ambitions of its largest immediate neighbour).

 

[Paskal]

I defined the knight as an armored horseman in modern armor not like our uchelwr.

It should also be known what type of spear – and at what time – used the uchelwyr and at what time it became unfortunately indistinguishable from the English knights …

Warriors and their fellow Welsh archers have kept their obsolete outfits at least until Crécy but without the famous long spears and round shields for the non-archers …

What are their outfits after Crécy ?

When the Welsh infantrymen become indistinguishable of the English infantrymen ?

[Who Asked This Joker]

Guy Farrish wrote:

Who Asked This Joker Uchelwyr were from all over Wales, not just Gwynedd – land owning class – lords or noblemen. Not sure why you think the figure NCS posted looks to be particularly Irish influenced? Is it because of the green?

Good to know about locations etc.  As for why, the tunic is too long.  Falls more in line with Irish fashion.  So this man is from south west Wales maybe?  Also, Britons tended to wear trousers.  This guy has bare legs.  The rest of his equipment is fine to my mind.  Even the nasal helm should be fine.  It was suggested that they didn’t have nasal helms but this might have been liberated from an enemy warrior or something.

 

John

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

--Abraham Lincoln

[Paskal]

There were differences in dress,armor and armaments between the Uchewyrs of the north and those of the south?

[Guy Farrish]

If there were differences in dress between kingdoms I don’t know of them.

I’m fairly sure there weren’t any regs about tunic length

Nasal helm fine by me – NCS pointed out the sources seemed not to support the drawing in Heath’s book.

Bare legs/leggings/trousers – conjectural and unknown bar some marginal cartoons of lower class infantry in manuscripts. Bare legs unlikely I would have thought for a nobleman.

 

[Not Connard Sage]

Heath, again, in his ‘Armies of the Middle Ages: Volume 1’ in his notes to Figure 24: pp101-102 (a Welsh ‘foot soldier’ still dressed in just a belted tunic, cloak, no hose/leggings…and one shoe!) states “Welsh contingents in uniforms are recorded as early 1337, these uniforms being described as green and white from 1346.” and “…the Welsh did not fight only for the English. From the mid-1360s they are often to be found fighting for the French too, under such leaders as Owain Llawgoch…Ieuan Wyn and Edward ap Owain”.

No sources are given. I assume the latter was one of the Tudor dynasty, haven’t checked.

None of which is germane to the OP, but we seem to have drifted away from that somewhat.

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Paskal]

@ Guy Farrish

But those brave Celtic warriors from the Wales with their primitive outfits,were before 580 AD a people of the ancients Sub-Roman British …

But their outfits have nothing to do with the Sub-Roman British ..?

[Paskal]

@ Not Connard Sage

Yeah so we can say that in the fourteenth century, the Welsh are “modern” as the english … So those who are interested are for the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth century …

So those that interest us are those for the eleventh, twelfth and thirteenth century …

[Who Asked This Joker]

So, what I see from this interesting thread is that arms and armor were varied as was dress.  Colors could be anything.  Likely, the pro Marcher Welsh looked a lot like their English allies/lords.  The native Welsh probably had somewhat more “antique” equipment but maybe not overly so.   I cannot disagree with any of it.  I think, in the end, pick some figures of the period that look right to you and go with it.  Surely there are some figures of men-at-arms types of the time that are at least dressed in hose that would fit the bill?

 

 

 

John

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

--Abraham Lincoln

[Paskal]

That’s the question, what figurines to buy … to make an easy transformation …

And when we have finished our transformations of figurines, someone will tell us that there is one or more valid figurine of Uchelwr and exactly like the one illustrated on page 95 in the book “Armies of Feudal Europe 1066-1300” by Ian Heath (but with a round shield) ..!

[Guy Farrish]

If anyone would like to pursue the idea that there is more to the Welsh, and indeed the Celtic, soldier and military development during the early and middle, medieval period than Dark Age barbarians – have a read of these:

The Age of Conquest: Wales 1063-1415. RR Davies (paperback) – hardback pub as Conquest, Co-existence and Change: Wales 1063-1415

Hanes Cymru. John Davies – pub in English translation : A History of Wales

The above two are great for the cultural background of a developing European country and take a few steps into the complexities of Welsh laws and culture that underpinned military development. Probably too general for those looking for a wargames military history, but fascinating if you like correcting Victorian and ‘Braveheart’ type views of mediaeval history.

Welsh Soldiers in the Later Middle Ages, 1282-1422. Adam Chapman (expensive – c£50-£60 and later than this period)

War and Society in Medieval Wales, 633-1283: Welsh Military Institutions (Studies in Welsh History). Sean Davies (Useful alternative view to the myths of romantic hairy Celts from the Dark Ages)

Considering how difficult it is digging out source material on the subject of the works, these are solid additions to the canon of Celtic mediaeval military studies. Revisionist I suppose but from a solid evidence base that checks Anglocentric views of the ‘otherness’ of the Celtic fringe and ties Welsh social, cultural and military development back in to the European mainstream.

These don’t diminish the unique character of Welsh military and cultural achievement but do provide a corrective to the idea they were ‘quaint’ or ‘twee’ or ‘barbaric’.

And they let me have quite a wide choice of figure for my Welsh armies!

[Paskal]

Thank you Guy, now have a good and solid bibliography for the Welsh Army of the feodal period -1066 to 1300 AD – thanks to you  !

Now we would have to do the same kind of work with existing and usable Welsh figures in 25 / 28mm for the feodal period -1066 to 1300 AD – …

It’s very important too …

[Not Connard Sage]

Guy Farrish wrote:

Revisionist I suppose but from a solid evidence base that checks Anglocentric views of the ‘otherness’ of the Celtic fringe and ties Welsh social, cultural and military development back in to the European mainstream. These don’t diminish the unique character of Welsh military and cultural achievement but do provide a corrective to the idea they were ‘quaint’ or ‘twee’ or ‘barbaric’. And they let me have quite a wide choice of figure for my Welsh armies!

The Irish and Scots were given the same treatment by contemporary chroniclers and Victorian fantasists. And a lot of credence has been given to scant sources by figure manufacturers too…

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Guy Farrish]

Yes, absolutely, and I had to restrain myself from going off on one about them as well!

Shall we just not mention Braveheart?

 

[Not Connard Sage]

Guy Farrish wrote:

Yes, absolutely, and I had to restrain myself from going off on one about them as well! Shall we just not mention Braveheart?

 

Let’s not. Can we keep away from ‘clan’ tartans too? 🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Author]

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