The Accuracy of Contemporary Resources?

[OotKust]

The current (well lets say recent) furore slowly building again brings many questions. Recently a post of the document “[Collection d’uniformes de l’armée française et de ses alliés en 1812” by C. Weiland (available here – https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8427426d/f1.double) has me thinking.

Wonderful work- however with everything we thought we knew, about the French ‘elite’ Carabiniers, seems somewhat topsy-turvey. It was one incredible administrator and battle general, de Nansouty, who argued for armouring the Carabinier regiments in cuirasses and helmets to replace their decade-aging bearskins.

Weiland however, shows for an ‘1812’ Carabinier (not mounted), the full pre-1810 uniform in entirety.

How could such a thing occur? So many eminent ‘reproductions’ cite the regulations [and design] of new dress and equally eminent artistic greatness in display the same.

What is it that cannot be relied upon? Should we accept that the dates cited are indicative, and not specific. I’ve often thought the same of the E.Fort illustrations, which like JOB, Rigo and others, are attractive designs and animations, yet perhaps a little too passionate and endearing?

Anyone have ideas on the matter? After all, our gaming figures reflect these ‘popular’ facets and uniforms of easy research and reach (thinking the Russian scuttle shaped shako etc.) but should we accept these?

Regards ~davew

[Not Connard Sage]

Should ‘we’ field units in campaign dress rather than full dress?

Should ‘we’ engage in fruitless searches for ‘authentic’ uniform colours?

Should ‘we’ continue to fool ourselves that we are engaging in Napoleonic warfare when we shove little lead figures around a table that is an approximation of Auerstadt/Talavera/Waterloo?

Should ‘we’ continue to pretend that we gain any insight into the reality of Napoleonic warfare, with all the blood, shit and suffering that went with it?

 

It’s a feckin’ hobby, not a job, or academe, or the beginning of a thesis, and one Kevin Kiley in it is enough.

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Mike]

Whilst debate is encouraged and disagreements allowed, assuming done so politely, there is no need for name calling, not sure who you are referring too (Kevin Kiley) but let us keep TWW a place free from hostility and name calling.

Reminder to everyone, if you don’t like the content of a users posts, ignore user may be the way forwards.
If their posts are sexist/racist/etc then let me know.

[OotKust]

>> and one Kevin Kiley in it is enough.

If I ever get that biased and blinded, this is my get out of jail free card to you, when you shoot me!? Fair enough???

~d

PS- I know its a hobby- I’ve done the easy ‘follow this’ s**z, thats no longer intellectually satisfying…

[Mishima]

Don’t shoot me, but for me:
Close enough – is good enough.

Your mileage may vary.  But then I do Vietnam and WW1 in 15mm so, you know…

Tim from Gomi Designs. 15mm Vietnam riverine. www.gomidesigns.co.uk

[Jim Webster]

I remember reading an account of the 1814 campaigns where some newly recruited French battalions performed so well that Napoleon, to reward them, offered them uniforms instead of their civilian clothes.
Given that the uniforms were captured Prussian uniforms and were still invested with (captured Prussian) lice the recruits turned down his generous offer and fought on in the civilian clothes they’d been wearing when they were recruited.

Have I any way of checking the source, frankly given my knowledge of French, I very much doubt it 🙂
Am I going to get too upset about the details of uniform that appear on the troops I’m facing, frankly no 🙂

https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

[Guy Farrish]

When I started wargaming I marched confidently into battle armed with my Liliane et Fred. After ten years of campaigning I lost heart a bit, not in Napoleonic wargaming, but in the search for an absolute Uniform truth.

I’m interested in history and generally prefer primary to secondary sources and edge cautiously around ‘popular’  works when I’m playing at being a historian. In matters of uniforms however I have learned to love a more postmodern approach.

[Arthur Harman]

In his recently published ‘The Army of the Kingdom of Italy, 1805-1814’ (Helion & Company, 2022), Stephen Ede-Borrett notes that, “..older patterns of uniform and equipment continuing to be issued from store well after they had officially been replaced.” and that, “Equipment, of course, lasted much longer than cloth items such as coats.” So it would be common in many armies for units to continue to be issued with previous regulation items of uniform until stocks of such were exhausted. Thereafter, one might find reinforcements of new recruits in the now regulation uniforms while veterans were still wearing out the previous style. And then there are campaign adaptations made by the soldiers themselves to consider… (Remember the photo caption in an Osprey on the Crimean War: “This group of Mongolian brigands are in fact the 68th Durham Light Infantry.”)

So the typical wargame unit in identical uniforms will often be completely unrealistic as a portrayal of the historical appearance of a particular unit on a particular day, but looks attractive on the tabletop and it’s easier to paint all the men in identical style. Wargame armies, which have to serve in many different historical and hypothetical battles, and sometimes as proxies for other troops, don’t need to be as ‘accurate’ as uniform plates or dioramas.

Personally, if my troops are recognisable and look as good as the aquatints in Jenkins’ ‘Martial Achievements &c.’ I’m perfectly happy. Let everyone do whatever satisfies them.

 

[OotKust]

>>Have I any way of checking the source, frankly given my knowledge of French, I very much doubt it <<

Jim, 1814 was a home front and virtually every able bodied adult was a partisan. Like 1943, like Ukraine. Sure the ‘regular’  army gets all the overage in ‘hobby’ press. I’m sure the likes of PLDawson will sooner or later declare on the subject.

>>When I started wargaming I marched confidently into battle armed with my Liliane et Fred.<<

Guy, as did I, as the cheapest of all ‘foreign sourced’ books in town! The Funckens I still assert, are about as fundamentally correct as such base books could be, and are therefore still a valuable if dated resource. They don’t have the space and depth to cover everything in detail, and in that the cavalry suffer a lot more, and lacking pages of ‘qualifiers’ and explanations, the artistry is still correct IMHO. They proudly reside in my library 40+ years later.

>>So the typical wargame unit in identical uniforms will often be completely unrealistic as a portrayal<<

Arthur, agree 100%. And your quote from Barret may finally sink in to the wargamer lore/ psyche one day. I’ve been fighting that particular argument for a long while.

However I say, why should everyone conform to to the lowest common denominator? Not everyone likes the same scales/ figures or heavens, rules.

Why should we all be expected to ‘conform’ with the same in research. If contrary, or controversial  material doesn’t matter, and I know there are ‘gamers’ for whom wargaming is just a passing phase and another variant of chess anyway. Once becoming champions, or failing too, they walk away and care less about it being a hobby others enjoy.

I chose a course of wargaming specialisation* many, many years ago and, with some room for ‘growth’ around the edges, have stuck with that focus. My friends of equal longevity provide the variations and distractions of alternate periods and games. Terrain and scenery is virtually agnostic.

*I hasten to add that a nominal pair of armies for AWI exist, partly my own work and partly purchased from friends, complete bar minor details.

regards and thanks for the input. davew

[Mike]

Jim Webster wrote:

Am I going to get too upset about the details of uniform that appear on the troops I’m facing, frankly no

Wise, nor me, after all not everyone paints to the same standard and thus may not be able to present models to other peoples satisfaction.
But then I paint my models for my satisfaction not that of others, and likewise do not push any standards onto anyone else.

After all, as I have oft said:

[Jim Webster]

Mike wrote:

Jim Webster wrote:

Am I going to get too upset about the details of uniform that appear on the troops I’m facing, frankly no

Wise, nor me, after all not everyone paints to the same standard and thus may not be able to present models to other peoples satisfaction. But then I paint my models for my satisfaction not that of others, and likewise do not push any standards onto anyone else.

 

I confess that my enthusiasm for 6mm Napoleonic Russians increased in leaps and bounds when I read that they often left their expensive jackets in the baggage train and fought in their great coats (on the grounds they were reissued with one of them every year anyway 🙂 )

https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

[Not Connard Sage]

Jim Webster wrote:

Mike wrote:

Jim Webster wrote:

Am I going to get too upset about the details of uniform that appear on the troops I’m facing, frankly no

Wise, nor me, after all not everyone paints to the same standard and thus may not be able to present models to other peoples satisfaction. But then I paint my models for my satisfaction not that of others, and likewise do not push any standards onto anyone else.

I confess that my enthusiasm for 6mm Napoleonic Russians increased in leaps and bounds when I read that they often left their expensive jackets in the baggage train and fought in their great coats (on the grounds they were reissued with one of them every year anyway )

Many Napoleonic troops fought in greatcoats, regardless of nationality. I think that is well documented enough to meet everyone’s satisfaction 🙂

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[OotKust]

Yet another gross generalisation I’m afraid, and far away from the subject of accuracy of ‘depicted’ uniform illustrations [and the corollary of ‘effect’ on the gaming hobby…]. But thanks for offering…

If you read the research, you will see that Russia was as parsimonious and broke as the next nation- no-one was gifted everything, and many nations DIDN’T have the maligned ‘great-coats’ available- because Winter wasn’t the acknowledged season for matches.

Yes I know we’ve had to overcome the premise that ‘those French’ didn’t wear them either- taking a leaf from the PLDawson book of scepticism, you will find that either Buonaparte (as it was spelled pre-1800?) and N. both issued directives that coats were to be supplied to so and so. There was such an order for 1805 before the grande march commenced.

~d

[Kitfox]

I think I’ll stick to the “Sharpe Rule” French in blue, British in red and to hell with the epaulettes.

Death to all fanatics!

[Patrice]

Well, anyway, that’s how a carabinier’s cuirass looks like authentically after a good battle (Musée de l’Armée, Paris):

http://www.argad-bzh.fr/argad/en.html
https://www.anargader.net/

[Not Connard Sage]

Patrice wrote:

Well, anyway, that’s how a carabinier’s cuirass looks like authentically after a good battle (Musée de l’Armée, Paris):

I’ve seen that in the Mussee de l’Armee. Makes you wince a bit.

 

Is there a rule for the morale effect of seeing one of your mates hit with a six pound cannonball?

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Mike]

Kitfox wrote:

I think I’ll stick to the “Sharpe Rule” French in blue, British in red and to hell with the epaulettes.

B**t*rds

[vtsaogames]

Kevin Kiley is an author of Osprey books, most about the Napoleonic wars. He is very pro-French. He had a long online vendetta against another Osprey Author, Dave Hollins, very pro-Austrian. These two battled on various forums and were banned repeatedly, starting up again shortly after the bans were relaxed. I believe a cease fire was finally called.

 

One long battle was about who invented the briquet (a harness for gunners dragging guns). The term briquet became gamer slang for teapot tempests. Never silly, us gamers.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[Sane Max]

The key point to remember about him –

Not Connard Sage wrote:

It’s a hobby, and one REDACTED in it is enough.

He isn’t actually IN the hobby. He doesn’t wargame – he just seeks out fora on which to start unpleasant arguments after getting banned from the previous one.

[Not Connard Sage]

vtsaogames wrote:

Kevin Kiley is an author of Osprey books, most about the Napoleonic wars. He is very pro-French. He had a long online vendetta against another Osprey Author, Dave Hollins, very pro-Austrian. These two battled on various forums and were banned repeatedly, starting up again shortly after the bans were relaxed. I believe a cease fire was finally called. One long battle was about who invented the briquet (a harness for gunners dragging guns). The term briquet became gamer slang for teapot tempests. Never silly, us gamers.

 

Bricole. 😉

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Not Connard Sage]

Sane Max wrote:

The key point to remember about him –

Not Connard Sage wrote:

It’s a hobby, and one Kevin Kiley in it is enough.

He isn’t actually IN the hobby. He doesn’t wargame – he just seeks out fora on which to start unpleasant arguments after getting banned from the previous one.

This is true, but his circumlocutory ‘angels on the head of a pin’ arguments and rampant Napophilia tainted every damn wargaming forum he appeared on.

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[vtsaogames]

Not Connard Sage wrote:

Bricole.

Indeed. Been spending too much time with the charcoal grill.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[OotKust]

Kevin Ki**** is an author of Osprey books, most about the Napoleonic wars.

Actually I dont think he was, but at least one book is crap and a total waste of money, with regret, I dont say very often.

However please pollute your own thread with any stuff about him, and I’d respectfully request these comments be moved there (or deleted) mike.. has nothing to do with my topic other than the allegation that I’m anything like …

davew

[Jim Webster]

Surely if you’re discussing the accuracy of contemporary resources, the work of individual authors has to be part of the discussion as they are the creators of the contemporary resources? I’ve never read anything by Kevin Kiley, but then I have very few Napoleonic Ospreys. But given they are quite a ‘go to’ resource for a lot of wargamers, flagging up those a person has problems with is just part of the discussion.

 

https://jimssfnovelsandwargamerules.wordpress.com/

[Not Connard Sage]

Jim Webster wrote:

Surely if you’re discussing the accuracy of contemporary resources, the work of individual authors has to be part of the discussion as they are the creators of the contemporary resources? I’ve never read anything by Kevin Kiley, but then I have very few Napoleonic Ospreys. But given they are quite a ‘go to’ resource for a lot of wargamers, flagging up those a person has problems with is just part of the discussion.

I’m all in favour of history as a learning tool, but endless arguments about bricoles and prolongs teach the average gamer nothing.

The argument is defeated like this “Horse drawn artillery pieces move 6 inches per turn. Manhandled artillery pieces move 1 inch per turn”*

Further, prolong is often conflated with moving the piece back into position after firing. They are not the same thing.

Even further, endless streams of pixels about who invented the bricole are otiose. It’s a leather belt worn around the waist with a piece of rope attached. Now call me contrary (it’s a fair cop guv), but I think the use of something similar for moving heavy fings might have occurred to someone before the latter half of the eighteenth century.

Don’t get me started on bloody Gribeauval.

 

 

*or whatever your time/ground scale is. 🙂

 

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[OotKust]

>>flagging up those a person has problems with is just part of the discussion.

Just fake news Jim, and you’re feeding the fire. I couldnt care less whatever the opinion or the reasons, as I said I don’t believe he’s ever written for them. Below his dignity I imagine, but I’m not here to criticise authors and I object to the hijacking of a legitimate thread. Regardless of personality disorders, seems no better area to discuss issues.

 

[Mike]

So.
Yes it can be sometimes frustrating when a topic veers off course.
However this is a conversation, people say things and they comment on it and related things, then conversations evolve and wander off.
It happens to us all, when it happens to me I either try to get it back on track and or ignore the replies that I am not interested in.
If it goes off track in a way that is interesting but not really what I wanted to talk about I sometimes create a new topic to talk about that.

What won’t happen here is the deletion of peoples comments that are not on topic.
Also what is not cool is the insulting of other people.
There have been a few anti Kevin Kiley comments, this is not cool, so please don’t.
Anyone.

Let’s all be cool and try to engage meaningfully or not at all?
For random blurts and insults and such like there are other sites out there that would be glad of such content.

It may be worth noting that primary function of the forum here is to discuss gaming and gaming related things, history is very clearly part of that, but the discussion of history itself is not the primary reason I created TWW.

Getting into the nitty gritty and minutiae of pure history may best on a specialist history site?
Especially if people can get passionate about such things.

[vtsaogames]

OotKust wrote:

Kevin Ki**** is an author of Osprey books, most about the Napoleonic wars. Actually I dont think he was, but at least one book is crap and a total waste of money, with regret, I dont say very often. However please pollute your own thread with any stuff about him, and I’d respectfully request these comments be moved there (or deleted) mike.. has nothing to do with my topic other than the allegation that I’m anything like … davew

 

My humble apologies for the hijack. My intent was to explain the place that writer occupies in the gaming firmament to Mike. It wasn’t about that writer’s works so much as the online dust-ups involved. Please return to your regularly scheduled posting.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[OotKust]

I’m enjoying, to some extent, in that I can usually* but not always get books that have been published long ago (say 20 years when I stopped caring) and can pick up from someone elses collection.

*Usually, because, well, sellers leave their catalogues online and induce payments- even though they dont have THE actual items they sell you- in any other case such a matter would be theft, or at least robbery, (covered elsewhere…).

Obviously publishing has changed immensely with technology improvements [and licensing payment I guess] as ‘reprints’ of modern works are now de rigeur.

~d

[OotKust]

The hobby has many much maligned and abused parts where information has crept along from less than thorough statements.

One that has long suffered are the veritable 20% of the French infantry corps- The infanterie legere. In part, those others known as ‘hors line’- unnumbered corps suffer the most to their efficiency and dedication.

To make an example that the reverse can, often, be true- this quotation by Robert Ouvrard, FINS (https://www.napoleon-histoire.com/)  of a first-hand officer/ correspondent on the Battle of HEILSBERG – 10.06.1807.

Division Legrand struggled heroically against four times as many adversaries, when it was obliged to retire. This was made in squares, en echelon (par échiquier), in its retirement it draws away from divisions Saint-Hilaire and Carra Saint-Cyr.

The brigade of General Lasalle having been in the same instant a most complete crushing defeat, this General had only the time to avoid be taken by throwing himself into a square formed by the 26eme Legere, where Murat and Soult had already taken refuge.

 

The stampede of our cavalry had been so quick that each refugee reacted to where he had been able to find safety.

 

The General Legrand had taken refuge in the square of the Tirailleurs Corse and seeing its’ Commandant injured,  moving along barely, supported by a carabinier.

 

“Regulate your pace Morandini, I am not in a hurry, I know the value of your shooters.”

And the Commandant retorted in the tone of the command: “At a walking pace of the General, Soldiers!”

 

A mass of cavalry and of enemy light artillery, having come out at the same time against the front of the 55th de ligne which formed the left of division St. Hilaire and on the right the 26eme Legere occupied the right of division Legrand, these two unmoved bodies of the Tirailleurs Corse and of those of the Tirailleurs du Pô had time to form square to receive the chargers when they were threatened, keeping the enemy at bay, they allowed the other regiments to retire in good order, before starting their own by echelon». (VIVIEN)

Thus, we learn from correspondence and not a Bulletin, that TWO Corps commanders and one or more Divisional Generals took safety from three legere units in square.

Such a formation as ‘moving squares’ had been practised on the retirement subterfuge made by Napoleon two years earlier at Austerlitz on the Pratzen Heights on the 28th or 29th of November by 30 battalions.  All of these regiments were present.

Must have been an impressive sight (and made for the Russian-Allied forces to observe from afar…)

regards dave

Les Tirailleurs Corses

 

[OotKust]

Casual research also flicks up anomalies- from Berjauds 53eme de Ligne
http://frederic.berjaud.free.fr/053edeLigne/53e_de_ligne.htm I spotted a reference to a similar post above.

That is a statement by Eugene in his ‘Mémoires du Prince Eugène, t.1, page 277’ giving the full OB of the Armée d’Italie cSep 1805- citing-

seize bataillons des Carabiniers corses,

thats 16 battalions?? Even 16 companies seems impossible. The island (Corsica) had 5 Garde Nationalé battalions, supported by ‘volunteer’ units. To bolster the Armée d’Italie ‘Legions’ composed of selected, trained (we have to assume competant) companies were migrated to the mainland.

So where did a supposed 16 battalions of Carabiniers arise? Suggestions gratefully received…

dave

[Heroy]

The passage in question :
“L’aile gauche [de l’armée d’Italie], division d’infanterie Duhesme ….; division d’infanterie Serras, brigades Gilli, Guillet, Mallet et Schild, seize bataillons des carabiniers corses, 8e d’infanterie légère, 55e, 81e, 106e, 13e et 9e de ligne, quatre escadrons des dragons de la Reine, huit mille combattants, six bouches à feu.”

The text was written by the editor of the “Mémoires ….”, Albert Du Casse (chef d’escadron aide de camp du prince Jérôme, le baron Pierre-Emmanuel-Albert du Casse, Bourges 1813 – Paris 1893). He intends to say that there were 16 battalions across all 7 listed infantry units. I count below 14 battalions, but another 1-2 battalions of the 9e ligne were under Seras’ command earlier in the month.

ordre de bataille du fin d’octobre 1805
5e division d’infanterie : général de division Jean-Mathieu Seras
• 1ere brigade : général de brigade Jacques-Laurent Gilly
— bataillon d’élite de la légion corse (ex- “chasseurs corses”, service français) : chef de bataillon Ignace de Caraffa : 5 compagnies de carabiniers : 484 hommes
— 8e régiment d’infanterie légère (français) : colonel Louis Bertrand de Sivray : 1er & 2e bataillons : 1,062 hommes
— 53e régiment d’infanterie de ligne (français) : colonel Jean-Marie Songeon : 1er, 2e & 3e bataillons : 1,587 hommes
• 2e brigade : général de brigade Pierre-Joseph Guillet
— détachement de pionniers noirs (service français) : chef de bataillon Joseph (dit Hercule) Damingue : 2+ compagnies : 286 hommes
— 81e régiment d’infanterie de ligne (français) : colonel Michel-Louis-Joseph Bonté : 1er & 2e bataillons : 989 hommes
— 106e régiment d’infanterie de ligne (français) : colonel Jean-Charles Roussel : 1er, 2e & 3e bataillons : 1,587 hommes
• 3e brigade : général de brigade Claude-François de Malet
— 13e régiment d’infanterie de ligne (français) : colonel Jacques Froment : 1er & 2e bataillons : 973 hommes
— reggimento dragoni Regina (italiano) : colonello Giovanni-Maria Narboni : 1º, 2º, 3º & 4º squadroni : 495 uomini
• 4e brigade : général de brigade Jean-Jacques Schilt
— 3e bataillon du 9e régiment d’infanterie de ligne (français) : chef de bataillon Jacques Buscaille : 6 compagnies de fusiliers : 550 hommes
— ? compagnia del battaglione zappatori (italiana) : capitano ? : 67 uomini
— 6ª compagnia di cannonieri del 2º battaglione d’artigliera a piede (italiana) : capitano ? : 60 uomini *
— ? compagnia del battaglione del treno d’artigliera (italiana) : tenente ? : 64 uomini *
* 3 Austrian 6-pdrs with 3 caissons, 2 Austrian 3-pdrs with 2 caissons, 1 Savoyard or Italian 5.7-inch howitzer with 6 caissons, 2 caissons of infantry ammunition & 1 field forge

[OotKust]

Heroy wrote:

— bataillon d’élite de la légion corse (ex- “chasseurs corses”, service français)

Ahh so, I see, it didn’t look like a ‘summary’ in that list to me, my mistake. Ok well no drama then, that ‘unit’ is known to me for sure; being THE unit or ONE OF them to be confused over uniforms with the actual Tirailleur/ Chasseur Corse in the Grande Armée.

What also struck me was the low ratio of guns… had OB such as this existed 40 years ago I possibly would have opted for an eclectic looking ‘rabble’ with which to game!

Thanks again champion of data!

davew

[Author]

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