[Mike Headden]

Guy Farrish wrote:

Now you see, you have made a judgement about what EVERYONE wants from a game, from what YOU want from a game.

<snip>

Wargaming’s a broad church.

On the contrary, I’m putting forward my own personal view. I’m not saying you can’t have your nice, neat game just that I’d baulk at playing in it.

Frankly, the idea that there is “somewhere else” to put drinks and snacks seems to me a bizarre one. Pretty much everywhere I’ve ever played the options were “on the table” or “on the floor” and I’d sooner have things on the table thank you! 🙂

I’ll stick with my conviction that markers need to be visible but agree that the use of themed markers adds to both aesthetics and accessibility.

I like my games relaxed, friendly and fun. In my experience, clutter is part of the price you pay for that.

Do people actually use dice boxes? Never ever used them, or seen them used, that I recall.

Gaming is indeed a broad church and I wouldn’t have it any other way … so let’s hear it for the Sacred Order of the Perpetually Untidy 😀

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

The Polish company Oddzial Osmy do an extensive 1/600 (aka 3mm scale) range of WW2 stuff. They are available from Fighting 15’s in the UK ( https://www.fighting15sshop.co.uk/ )

3mm scale Panther (PzV D)

Worth a look if cash or space are limited or if, like me, you just like little stuff 🙂

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

I would have a grave distrust of any tabletop gamer who’s tables did not include a good smattering of impedimenta drawn from dice, tape measures, quick ref sheets, coffee cups, beer/ coke cans, snacks etc.

Also, markers are SUPPOSED to be visible. If you insist on suitably camouflaged indicators of casualties taken/ morale state/ ammunition or whatever I reserve the right to plonk something large and preferably fluorescent next to it so I can see the state of play. It’s a game not a movie set.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

I’d second Scarrow as a good read, though set later in the Roman Empire’s history.

The “First Man In Rome” series by Colleen McCullough is a brilliant portrait of the main characters of the period and the machinations at a political level. Well worth a read.

Steven Saylor’s “Roma Sub Rosa” series featuring Gordianus the Finder and, even more so, Lindsey Davis’s “Marcus Didius Falco” series are both excellent whodunnits and an excellent intro into the Roman world.

Rosemary Rowe’s “Libertus” series, set in post-invasion Roman Britain is also worth a read.

Robert Graves’ “I, Claudius” and Howard Fast’s “Spartacus” almost go without saying – watch the movies if the books are too heavy going for you.

On movies, the two series of the HBO/ BBC 2/ Rai Due miniseries “Rome” would be well worth a watch and covers the right period.

Finally, have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiction_set_in_ancient_Rome and see if anything takes your fancy.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Alternative Armies have some nice 15mm monsters including some very unusual ones in their Sengoku range.

http://www.15mm.co.uk

For giant beasties (snakes, centipedes, scorpions and the like) I tend to just use 28mm scale normal sized ones. The 28mm giant versions become humongous versions for 15mm.

Magister Militum have an extensive 15mm Fantasy range too

https://www.magistermilitum.com

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

World War Two worms? I mean that’s just silly!

Omigod! Omigod! Omigod! I LOVE IT! 🙂 🙂 😀

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Looking good!

Tempting to get the rules, put a few more figures on a base and do this with Rapier’s 6mm Chariot Era stuff.

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Early period armies seem to have been close formed infantry in little to no armour but with a very large shield, a helmet and a long spear/ short pike; two-horse, two-crew chariots, at least some of which would have one warrior in Dendra armour or similar but none would have shields, and light infantry with sling, javelin or bow at least some of whom seem to have fought naked.

This would make it very similar to Sumerian armies from a millenium earlier.

Later armies seem to have had core infantry  with more armour (probably linen or leather), a smaller “pelta” style shield and spears or swords rather than the longer weapons carried earlier. Chariots seem to be lighter in construction. Light infantry would be much the same as earlier.

Early armies emphasise protection, later ones mobility.

My take is that early armies are designed to achieve or resist conquest while later ones are for police actions, raiding and mobile operations.

Early and Late Imperial Roman armies show the same shift in emphasis.

That’s my take on it, for whatever it’s worth.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Totting up figure manufacturing companies I’d dealt with in person or through intermediaries over my 54 years of gaming I got to a total of 132 then stopped before I felt compelled to retire to the library with a glass of fine scotch, a pistol and one bullet as the only way to put an end to this obsession! 😀

To be fair the list includes the German “flats” manufacturer I bought my first lead figures from (a week before discovering a local shop selling Minifigs and abandoning flats forever!) and who’s name I have long since forgotten. It also includes both the US and European versions of some companies where I have bought from both (is that cheating?).

I’m beginning to wonder if it might be a shorter list if I just included those I HAVEN’T bought from. 😀

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

I’d use Vallejo 995 German Grey myself. Might be a little lighter than that shown but I tend to go a shade or so lighter on smaller figures so it depends on the scale you are painting.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Seems to me it’s the same model as is used in most of the MMO’s I play, Jim.

If all you want are the basics, it’s free. Bells and whistles are extra.

Not like sponsor membership is break the bank expensive.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Abwehrschlacht, the Germans won the first game and lost the second but frankly everyone involved “won” because it was a hoot in both cases. Lots of  memorable incidents, like the Sturmovik in the first game that blundered every attack and wiped out more points than any other unit without inflicting a single point of damage on the Germans!!!

I think it is fair to say that the group that played would rather lose a good game than win a bad one, which helps.

 

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Looks good! Wrong scale for me but very impressive.

I have two 10mm scale Maus models (one prepainted made by CanDo and one that’s still bare metal and resin from Pendraken) I’ve run a couple of BKC2 games that I called “Last Stand at Kummersdorf” with a pair of Maus tanks and a rag tag collection of German infantry and lighter AFVs vs an endlessly recyclable set of Russians. The Germans win by detroying more points of Russians than the value of the total German forces. Game starts with the Germans in the middle of the table and ends with the loss of the last German unit.

It is not a scenario intended to be taken seriously!

I look forward, one day, to doing the same scenario with a Ratte replacing the two Maus 🙂

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

As a species we are excellent storytellers and we have very long, but rather imperfect, memories.

Things garbled in the retelling are the norm not the exception but kernels of truth remain for a very long time.

A mixture of practice, old and new, in the Iliad does not surprise me.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Paskal, the “other bits of armour” are not only the small number of partial suits found but also the pictograms of armour pieces found in some of the palace inventory tablets.

Some people seem to think they represent the less complete armour worn by the less wealthy troops. Another theory is that palaces issued pieces to complete partial sets owned by charioteers. Of course it’s entirely possible that the palace acted as a very early “company store.”

“You can buy your armour from anywhere you like … as long as the place you like is here!” 🙂

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

It is certainly done later Paskal  but all that lower body (hips to ankles) makes no sense to me if the warriors remained chariot bound. Not at all saying you are wrong, only that my explanation makes sense to me!

The nice thing about Bronze Age armies is that it is so hard for anyone to prove your own interpretation is wrong … almost whatever your interpretation is! 🙂

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

The palace cultures seem to have equipped chariot units with whatever bits of the standard panoply they lacked. That may not have extended to the full Dendra style outfit but  from the palace inventories I believe the chariot warriors were armoured to a greater or lesser degree.

My own (perhaps idiosyncratic) view is that engaging enemy chariots they would basically be proto-lancers. Lines of chariots passing through each other, effectively jousting. Pass through, turn, re-engage until one side decides “sod this for a game of soldiers” and breaks off. Exit, pursued by a … chariot 🙂

Against infantry they would move to attack. If the enemy broke the chariots would chase them down. If the enemy stood they would peel off and poke and prod the infantry with their spears in an effort to cause a hole or break the infantry morale. If that failed, they had the option of dismounting at a safe distance and engaging on foot, with the chariots as “battle taxis” to rescue them if wounded or outmatched.

I have no better evidence than that makes sense of all of the info I’m aware of.

I find the Middle Eastern Bronze Age fascinating and the warfare conducted during it especially so.

I am delighted to find so many erudite and fascinating people here who share my passion!

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Song of Blades and Heroes might fit the bill

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/30804/song-blades-and-heroes

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Having retired, paid off the mortgage and the overdraft I find myself with less than 50% of my previous salary but with around 40% of previous outgoings so I have more disposable income now than ever … though given how little I had before that’s not saying much!!

I find myself enthused by a new scale/ period/ army every two to six weeks and wind up collecting the “basic” stuff needed. Well, for a certain value of basic at least.

As a result I have six currently active* projects and who knows how many that are currently shelved and am in the process of collecting a seventh … anyone know a good source of 15mm scale Late Pleistocene fauna? 🙂

*in the sense that elements of them are still on the painting table even though they may not have seen a paintbrush in many, many months!!

 

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

The Model 1931 (B-4) 203mm Self-Propelled Heavy Howitzer (aka Stalin’s Sledgehammer) could move without the aid of a tow, though I don’t think that it counts as “manhandled” exactly. 🙂

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Very cool mini’s!

I’ve been interested in the order since someone I knew became priest in charge of St Vincent’s church which is the home of the Military & Hospitaller Order Of St. Lazarus Of Jerusalem, Grand Bailiwick Of Scotland here in Edinburgh. This order is a modern (instituted 1910) organisation but sparked my interest in the original order, which I had been unaware of before.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Interesting article, thanks for that.

Would like to see a more scholarly review of the evidence but anything that throws light onto the period is a good thing, IMHO.

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

This is a hobby site … and a wargaming one at that. Be assured if people weren’t entirely happy about how you were doing things you’d know 🙂

As others have said, the current situation is fine by me.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

I retired just over 4 years ago.

I now “earn” around 40% of my former salary in form of my pension.

I game* roughly twelve times longer per week than I used to when working.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum? 🙂

*painting, researching, learning rules & playing

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

This is one of many reasons why I like games which  model command and control problems with die rolls or card play.

The art of generalship is not just about getting subordinates to follow orders but also in dealing with the fallout when, by accident or design, they don’t.

Unreliable ally generals didn’t vanish with the rise of the modern nation state!

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

My guess, and it is no more than that, is that state boundaries have settled down, alliances have formed and the major powers posture and glower but rarely engage in outright warfare.

Armies are increasingly involved in police actions against raiders and bandits or in raiding themselves rather than formal battles. Mobility and training become the keys to success.

We see similar things occurring from Bronze Age Mesopotamia to the armies of the Later Roman Empire.

Wars of expansion require a formal military capable of knock ’em down, drag ’em out battles and sieges.

Once you have as much as you think you can hold as a state you need paramilitary police more than an army … until the next wannabe Empire comes knocking!

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

“Moreover, the fact that, in Homer’s account, the Hittites do not appear at any moment is hardly explicable …”

Various non-Trojan forces assist Troy. Are they Trojan allies answering the call or Hittite vassals ordered to help out?

Mesopotamian and Egyptian archives are full of vassal kings protesting that they have sent troops and tribute but now, in their time of trial, their overlord and his army are nowhere to be seen.

“Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” 🙂

Nice summary of the historical evidence by the way.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

My main focus of interest, currently, is the wars of Sumer and Akkad and so my knowledge of modern conflicts like the Trojan Wars is rather more patchy.

With that proviso, it seems to me that war in the Mycenaean world must have become more fluid as evidenced by the transition from tower shield and long spear to pelta and javelin infantry and the lightening of chariots.

Whether this is down to a move from more formal battles to increasing “police actions” or an attempt by the palace administrations to reduce the military budget or a move from formal inter-city-state warfare to a series of foreign raids (which is what I suspect the “Trojan War” was) it would leave the better armoured elite warriors less mobile than the foot-sloggers so the Battle-taxi concept has some merit especially as the first and last of those would probably make chariot-on-chariot clashes far less likely.

The chariot then becomes a means of delivering elite warriors to the battle line to stiffen resistance if things were going badly or to exploit an opening if they were going well. A Bronze Age “fire brigade.”

Modern reconstructions of the Dendra panoply suggest that they were optimised for melee weapons rather than missile weapons which would suggest that, unlike Middle Eastern chariots of the period, the occupants were not expected to engage in archery or the throwing of javelins. So, at the very least, Mycenaean chariots may have been proto-lancers not proto-horse archers!

I think the chariot warriors were elite warriors rather than necessarily “nobles” as the palaces seem to have made up the difference between what the warrior could provide and the approved equipment.

Finally, the more wheels than chariots thing doesn’t necessarily imply a particular mode of operation to me. Simply moving around in terrain with no metalled roads must have taken it’s toll on wheels, let alone charging around in battle!

As ever, random thoughts of the marginally informed 🙂 Interesting thread, I trust I’ve added something positive to it!!

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

As with most of the Bronze Age, I doubt we can ever be sure exactly what happened and when. That said, it seems pretty certain that we have the site of Troy and that Troy VIIA met an end at a date that ties in with the tale of Troy that has come down to us. So early 12th century BCE seems a likely setting for the Fall of A Troy, if not the Fall of THE Troy!

Maintaining a large force at such a distance from home for a period of ten years seems to me an unlikely feat for Mycenaean Greece and so I too wonder if what we have is the conflation of several wars/ raids.

The societal and logistical strain of such a thing, war or protracted raiding, might well have helped weaken the states in Greece and Western Anatolia and contributed to the collapse of the palace cultures.

As to the wooden horse I think the story is a misremembering of a perfectly normal siege engine, such as was used in the Near East for some time prior to our putative war.

A tower like this is vaguely horse shaped, a little artistry could make it much more so.

The story of the Trojans bringing it into the city is not too far fetched if we remember that captured enemies were sometimes used as labour in sieges, giving the defenders the dilemma over killing their own or allowing siege works to continue.

So, the Trojans drag the thing to the walls, they may have been forced to swing a ram to breach their own wall, men concealed in “the belly of the beast” swarm over the ramps from the tower or through the breach, open the gates for the rest of the army and much arson, pillage, looting and rape ensues. Pretty much as the legend says.

As to wargaming the event it would be the later boar-tusk helmet, pelta style shield and javelin armed warriors not the pike and tower shield variety for the Greeks, IMHO. The Trojans might be more Hittite-inspired in dress, as they may have been Hittite allies or vassals.

My, not terribly valuable, three ha’porth!

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

For what value of “realism?” 🙂

They give a good, fun game which feels like the Wild West to me. Though, given my knowledge of the Old West comes more from Hollywood than more serious research that may not be a recommendation.

My previous “go to” rule set was Once Upon A Time In The West which was more detailed and more complicated and more comprehensive but I’m not sure it was any more realistic.

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

For me the multiplayer, big table game has a number of advantages.

First up, as said above, there’s the sheer spectacle of large numbers of figures on, one hopes, attractive terrain.

Then there’s the social aspect, a chance for a group to play together rather than the seemingly common head-to-head game is one not to be missed.

The tactical flexibility it potentially allows is interesting too. Can I tie down the-player-opposite-me’s forces with 75% of my  force while the remaining 25% help the player to one side or the other crush their opposite number or am I just opening myself up to be the point at which the enemy achieves a breakthrough and rolls up our forces? That sort of thing.

Finally, there’s the knowledge that if your side wins it’s because you were brilliant and if your side loses it’s because you were let down by your allies

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

10 See book/ film/ TV programme/ magazine article and become fixated on gaming a new subject

20 Research extensively online, buy university level books on the subject where available

30 Plan small force for favoured force

40 Plan an opposing force (just in case)

50 Put together small order for basic forces for each side

60 Add to order

70 Receive figures

80 Put together much bigger order in a fit of enthusiasm

90 Plan painting schedule

100 Paint one or two units

110 GOTO 10

I guess these days I’m a collector of unpainted lead rather than a wargamer!

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Not aware of anyone doing figures of the characters from the film. The film seemed to go for the usual summer blockbuster attitude of “it doesn’t matter if it’s accurate as long as the punters know which side is which.”

Wargames Foundry do a nice line in 28mm Trojan Wars  which can be found here – https://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/myceneans-minoans-and-the-trojan-war-1600-800bc

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Just counted – I have 24 “active” brushes and a pot of old ones for things like glue.

They range from a 10/0 to a make-up powder brush (ulrafine detail to large scale dry-brushing).

I paint mainly 6mm and 10mm but also do some 3mm, 15mm, 20mm and 28mm

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

For me it’s not just how many things I’m tracking but how much space that takes up.

If a third of the table is taken up with record sheets it’s time to find a PC version of the game!

As a rule of thumb I can cope with a single A4 sheet.

That can be a character sheet in an RPG, a mech sheet in Battletech, a roster for a naval game and so on.

Ideally everything should be an on table marker.

 

 

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Wayland Games have the following rather pricey offering:

Odin Norse God
£20.00 (-20%)
RRP £25.00
Restock Expected – Available To Order

Odin, father of Thor, The Allfather, King of Asgard and one of the mightiest Warriors from Norse mythology, so take up the role of this fierce Immortal. This contains one highly detailed 62mm resin miniature of Odin the Norse God to be used with other 28mm miniatures. Become a God and control…
Product features

Game System : Of Gods And Mortals
Material : Resin
Scale : 28mm
Min Age : 12+
Finish : Unpainted
Format : Blister

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Hope to see you at Claymore then Ian!

I agree face to face meeting is by far the best. Alas finances, the need to rely on public transport and living up here in Edinburgh limit the number of shows I can justify going to. 🙁

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Those are brilliant!

Coupled with the previews of the 6mm High Elves I’d be seriously considering downsizing my fantasy gaming if I lived the other side of “the Pond!” 🙂

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

Double irony Ian, you’ve just sold me fifty quids worth of stuff because of your connection with Col Bills, whose staff I’ve come to know and like having chatted to them at several shows. Lost track of the number of times I’ve put together potential orders for your 3mm stuff and backed out at the last moment but the connection with Col Bill finally sold me on it!

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Mike Headden]

I play WW2 using Blitzkreig Commander 2 (aka BKC2) in 3mm, 6mm and 10mm with a stand of infantry being a platoon. I use 40mm x 20mm bases for all but with more figures for the smaller scales.

Six 10mm scale infantry on a stand, ten to twelve 6mm and up to twenty 3mm ones.

There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

[Author]

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